Joe Inglett? Seriously?
Far be it from me to actually agree with Richard Griffin, but these are increasingly puzzling and frustrating times in Blue Jay land, and while I might normally have taken Griff's piece on Shannon Stewart's unhappiness, with its hints at clubhouse malaise, to be another steamy helping of soft serve ice cream (flavour: mud monkey) descending slowly into the squirming face of this organization, I'm starting to come around to the idea that maybe it's OK that black helicopters seem to follow John Gibbons everywhere he goes. Maybe he really is stirring the sauce a little too fast. Maybe it's meant to be that the fucking babysitter is a lazy cow and won't leave the house to do business even though the phone is bugged.
Maybe I'm confusing Gibbers for Ray Liotta's character in Goodfellas again...
But seriously, Joe Inglett? He actually had Inglett penciled in to play left yesterday? Why????
I mean, I can actually justify-- if only to myself-- giving a day off Aaron Hill, even though Vernon Wells had just gone down. Hill did look like he could use a day off at some point, and nobody is ever going to be happy with taking one of your (supposed) better bats out of the lineup, and I could even argue that it's a bold display of faith in his players that Gibbons would run a lesser lineup out there knowing full well that he's very quickly running out of rope...
But Joe Inglett? Why????
It's almost like he's trying to make Ricciardi's ultimate decision easy for him, or... I don't even know what it is. But it's kind of a little bit ridiculous. And as much as I think that Gibbers takes way too much shit from the members of the peanut gallery who are pulling out their hair because this team is again not meeting their (probably unreasonable) expectations, this kind of stuff, to me, is mind boggling. It's just like the Johnny Mac issue earlier in the year. Why are you not using your best weapons while the season is steadily slipping away?
I mean, I totally don't buy any of the bullshit that adults need to be screamed at in order to motivate them, nor do I think there's a chance these hitters could have made it this far in their careers if they had it in them to be anywhere near this tied up by anything that a manager might or might not do, but... and I cringe as I'm about to write this... I am a little taken aback at the attitude that this team isn't prepared to do everything it fucking takes win. That doesn't just go back to the manager, though, lest we forget Frank Thomas and his "me first" attitude, or the front office decision not to bring in the greatest hitter of the last forty years. But whatever Gibbons has been doing on this front sure as fuck isn't helping.
Now, this isn't to say that I think the guy should be fired post-haste, it's more that I think he should not play Joe fucking Inglett while Shannon Stewart sits there rotting on the bench!
Other than this, I honestly do still have a hard time justifying giving Gibbers his walking papers-- though this kind of nonsense might be enough to change my mind if it continues, and I'm starting to get suspicious that I'm just being stubborn here. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm in an ever-dwindling minority on this front. It's just... I still don't think that the fact that teams typically fire their managers during these sorts of spells (which rarely changes anything, by the way) is any kind of reason to make this kind of move. And I really do think the stuff about the clubhouse atmosphere is overblown and most likely bullshit. And that the idea of making change has already kind of been taken care of with Frank Thomas, Kevin Mench, Brad Wilkerson and whatever else they've done since last September.
But... I will admit that all that doesn't really jibe with the odd sensations I had when reading that Griffin article-- agreeing with him and being unable not to think, "Something really is wrong here."
Regardless, I suppose any of this discussion of this is purely academic, because it's only a matter of time before Gibbons really does get the axe. I'm sure Ricciardi is loathe to toss away the one last layer of protection keeping his own ass out of the flames, but he really is coming to a point where he appears to have no choice. . .
UPDATE: From the Wild Speculation Dept., the Globe is reporting that none other than Mr. JP Ricciardi has "blown into" Cleveland to join up with the Jays.
Hmmm... do you think that maybe this is because he anticipates having a conversation with, say, the manager that he might not want to have over the phone? Dun dun dunnn!
Signed, Marty York
Note: Sounds like the podcast is up. Best regards to John Brattain for joining us and to Cathal Kelly for calling to let us know he wasn't dead and being apologetic and (I think) agreeing to come back and defend Griffin another time.
Is this even true? I'm basing this on a comment from somebody who was maybe listening to the old one... (Yes, Stoeten. It's true.)


105 rational and reasonable comments:
Gibbons had Inglett penciled in to play LF while Stewart AND Mench were on the bench.
I don't get it either.
I am also not one of those who have been screaming for Gibbons or JP to be fired, but Gibbons gives his regulars WAY to many off days.
Anyways - I really think that if this team is going to make a run, now with Wells out, we have to make a move for another Outfielder. And not the Wilkerson/Mench variety of player, more along the lines of Bay or Nady or Griffey...
My preference would be for Nady. We can keep him for the next year as well until Snider is ready.
And is i type this post- I see that Joe Inglett is indeed starting in LF for Game 1 today - batting 9th.
You guys have to read the article about Carlos Delgado's agent.
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2008/05/breaking_news_delgados_agent_i.html
I almost included that! Hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwf1E-_j74M
very suitable song for this blog
keep on rolen baby
Carmona is a righty. Stewart and Mench are righties. Inglett is a lefty.
Not good enough of a reason? Too bad I guess.
Just looking at today's pitching matchups... shit. The Indians have got themselves some pitching - this will be a tough double-header for Inglett and Co. to sweep.
Lol, "Inglett and Co."
So is Joe Inglett going to be our LH platoon in LF now?
Is that what you would support sp?
Josh Towers = Inspiration
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3391154
I'm going to totally have to steal Inglett and Co.
Barajas? Seriously?
You mean, why are they playing him, Josh? Jerry and Alan are saying it's because Burnett's ERA so far with Zaun catching is over 8.
Also... AARON HILL!!!!!! Oh. Wait. . . What the hell is wrong with Hill these days anyway?
check my update to this post... hmmm....
No, I'm saying that could possibly be one of Gibbons' reasons. I'm not saying I agree or disagree.
I wonder if this will be another Jays special. A 0-0 game where they get like 10 hits and Cleveland will score 1 in the 8th or 9th to win
just gotta say that the picure of gay-rod is fucking hilarious
Either Gibbons is going to get a talk, or he's in town to watch the game because Cleveland is practicably in the same area code as Boston and Toronto.
But I'm going to say he's there to give the team a mid game ripping before the 2nd game. I have a feeling we're going to loose this one 1-0 and then win the 2nd 23-1.
Also, Stewart slugged .125 against Carmona last year while Inglett is hitting righties at .302/.348/.414.
So while it is mildly surprising to play Inglett over Stewart, and maybe you play Mench, I don't think it deserved a "HOLY FUCK! JOE INGLETT????" blog post.
What does it say about Jays fans that even Stoeten is looking for reasons for fire Gibbons now. Hang in there man.
What's the sample size on Stewart v. Carmona, though? I know he's been tailing off against RHP in recent years, but through his career Stewart is pretty even when it comes to splits. And even though he's a shitty fielder, how about that butchering Inglett did the last time (I think the last time, at least) he was in RF for this team. Surprised they'd ever put him out there again.
But also... fair enough.
The fans can't complain that Baseball taking too long this year. The Jays probably complete there games quicker than any other team.
Maybe the players are perfecting the philosophy of getting paid while doing the least amount of work possible
I think Parkes already nailed that when he worked for the Govvy.
My bad, I only looked at the OPS. Stew had 8 ABs against Carmona so that's probably not enough to bench him. I would've at least played Mench though.
Also, in 2 ABs last year, Zaun had 2 hits against Carmona.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but Hill's average is close to 280 when he bats 7th and like in the low 200's when he bats second. It was the same last year not sure why they don't throw him back down. Maybe put overbay up there
When you face good pitchers you go with the best players who performed against him. It doesn't help that Stewart is a douchebag, or that he's batting .213 on the season and looks like a limp noodle out there.
I'm thinking JP is scouting his own team to see if Shannon is worth keeping. And since JP lies constantly, we can only assume he's come in to Cleveland to make changes.
At least AJ is fucking nails!
this just in: NO ONE hits it past rolen
This just in: AJ saw his own shadow and forgot that hitters murder elevated fastballs.
AJ usually falls apart in the 6th or 7th....should be due any batter now..Inglett and Co. lol
Well... we'll get 'em in the next game.
bottom line is.........we cant fucking hit for shit.
It's astonishing. There really is absolutely nothing about the history about every player on this team that would suggest it was remotely possible for them all to collectively have a run this fucking bad. It's just got to fucking stop. Soon. There's just no way this is one of the worst hitting teams of the last 20 years. No way!
Individually these guys are ok, but when you have to string 3 or 4 hits together, it's getting complicated.
Factoring in their batting averages the chance 3 batters get 3 hits in a row is about 12%. 4, 8%. 5, 2%.
How is that different than anyone else though? I mean, so far it IS different, but I just don't see the how. I'll say again: it's fucking astonishing.
if there is one thing they do well, it is make AL pitching look fucking astonishing
if there is one thing they do well, it is make AL pitching look fucking astonishing
Well... they'll get 'em next game.
we need Marcum to toss a no hitter...but how will we score a run?
That face from AJ just said "I have no faith in my team to get back in this game".
Jerry just said that it's now 4 runs in the last 38 innings. Unfuckingbelievable.
I'm listening, so I couldn't see the look, but that makes about as much sense as anything I've ever heard about AJ.
Funny, I saw 'go to the fridge and make a turkey sandwich', but I'm hungry so I guess I just saw what I wanted to see.
I have the video on my computer synched to the audio feed. It's a beautiful thing. No Jaime Campbell for me, ever.
Yeah, I found the online streams have the sameish delay... are u just buffering the audio till the video catches up? or are you just timing it right.
How did you do that!?!
Yep buffering the audio or video under it synchs.
By the way 4 runs in 39 innings is a 0.92 ERA. Basically, it's like we are facing Bob Gibson every time out.
Until it synchs*
I've been using TVAnts to stream live games but it's all full of ads and crap... I'd much rather build my own version that would let me choose which audio stream I get to hear.
But that's 2 projects down the pipe.
Your absolutly right Stoeten, there is no reason for this shitty hitting.
So what do you do? Well, just like in every other sport in the world, you fire the coach. Shitty as it is, it's unfortunatly time.
Let's just say the Jays are defying probability.
From Griffin:
But it's offensively where there must be a new world order, with additional responsibility for stepping up to new heights being placed on the shoulders of Rios, Scott Rolen, Lyle Overbay and Aaron Hill.
"I don't think so," Rios demurred. "I think it's more of a group effort. It's not only one person. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and that's it."
----
a) Stepping up to new heights suggests you're down on some old heights. This, sadly, isn't the case.
b) Thanks Alex. Inspired stuff.
Hey guys,
Loved the podcast this week. Thanks for answering my question! Flaming Bricks ... holy shit, you guys are hardcore.
i think its realization time, and this group just isn't gonna hit to win enough games. will still watch and hope i'm wrong, which i usually am.
anon,you're right they can't strings hits together to create a run.Offensively,they are a terrible team ,the likes I haven't seen in years.Gibby,will be out soon,JP needs a fall guy and then it's his turn. Unless this changes,JP should pull a Beane and trade some valuable pieces because this team has the wrong GM ,the wrong manager and the wrong lineup.They are not gonna hit runs with this group,so JP needs to act.Better yet,the owners can finally bring in another GM who can do just that.
Rios just did his thing by ending the first of game 2 via GIDP. High-five, part-of-the-group motherfucker!
God, two more double plays and the final one is a game ender. Start game two the same way. FIFTY Oedipus Complexing double plays. I want to rip my eyes out, stomp them into jelly, spread them on toast and force feed them to J.P. Ricciardi for subjecting them to this F5 x 69 to the square root of Lewinsky level of suckitude.
I don't want to see anybody fired, I want them to have the position players draw straws and the guy that draws the short straw should be publicly horsewhipped at home plate at the beginning next game at the Rogers Center then hauled up on a crane overtop the stadium and have his balls crushed by the retractable roof and allowed to drop headfirst into a 10 foot high steaming pile of fresh pig manure with his nose sewn shut.
Maybe that will inspire the rest into hitting. Let them experience a small taste of the pain and nausea their mastery of mediocrity has inflicted on me.
Best Regards
John
"I still don't think that the fact that teams typically fire their managers during these sorts of spells (which rarely changes anything, by the way) is any kind of reason to make this kind of move. "
Remember May 1989? Jimy out, Cito in. We made the playoffs that year too.
I think you really are being stubborn in thinking Gibbons should stay. Managers like him (unproven, never achieved anything, only have their job because of friends) are a dime a dozen. Get him out, get another guy in who hopefully will bring a better vibe to the team.
Curious what happens when you leave a starting pitcher out there for more than 100 pitches for the most part. Let's see here, that's when Roy got hit by the bottom of the Indians order on Friday and that's when Assdribble Cabrera goes yard for the first time this season on AJ Burnett.
To add insult to injury, we then take 2 other pitchers in the first half of a double header to get what would be the last Indians hitter out of the game. Way to go Gibbons, you'rrrrrreeeeee great.
Finally, while I can overlook playing Inglett in the first game of the double header, why the fuck are we finding AB's for Marco Scutaro at DH? The guy simply can't hit. Never has, never will.
See... you could have come up with a reasonable argument there, and then you went way off the rails.
Anyway, I'm saying I kind of feel like maybe it is time (and FYI, with Ricciardi suddenly in Cleveland and the Jays in the middle of a road trip, Gibbons is pretty much getting fired tonight, IMHO), but that it's also kind of bullshit.
Warren,the sad thing regarding pitch count is that the Jays could be like other teams and score like say 8 runs once in awhile to balance things out.The problem with Scutaro at DH isn't that he is the worst player on the team BUT the rest of them stink too!The sweep will happen tonight and Gibby is lucky if he lasts until tomorrow.It's time for a change:Bye Gibby.
Warren... the pitching has been as good as anybody's in baseball. Seriously, you're going to get picky about how he handles the pitchers? No offence, but I tend to think that the people who think he leaves guys in too long would be exactly the same ones who, if he actually took them out when they suggest and then the bullpen fucked it up would be shitting on him for taking out the starters too soon.
And Jesse Carlson has been pretty good this year. I wasn't expecting him to walk the batter he was brought in to face. I bet Gibbons wasn't either.
Anon: see... that's kind of the bullshit side of it that continues to kill me. "It's time for a change." Well, yeah, this team needs to get better, but I still have a hard time saying I'm OK with tossing the manager overboard when every mistake he makes (or even doesn't make) is magnified immensely because there is zero margin for error because the hitters can't score runs, which if you ask me, it's absurd to hang on his head.
That said, yeah... it's pretty much at the point of saying, "Well... there's no way that a new manager could possibly make it any worse." So, fine... do it.
I hope he doesn't get fired, I like the guy and it seems like he's a good manager. I'd like for him to get another shot managing somewhere else, but who was the last fired Jays manager who got hired somewhere else after he was fired? Jimy Williams?
He actually had a lot of success in the Mets organization as a manager (which a lot of people don't realize when they shit on him), but... I don't think anybody is going to be beating down his door.
Think Adam Lind can coach?
OK. It just became comical. Did that really fucking just happen?
Sometimes you have to be bad to be unlucky :)
at least I have now witnessed my first unassisted triple play!
It seems weird when they score a run now.
I got ahead of myself. All's back to normal
Triple play. Special.
OH.
MY.
GOD.
wait, there is no God.
wow. I'm with you stoeten, this offense has become comically bad.
Infuckingtense.
At least we saw something cool
Wow...just fucking wow!
Holy fuck. Could something go right once, please?
It's down the sidewalk, not across the street, right?
What the fucking fuck. It's just insane, at this point.
Honestly - did anyone else cheer when that just happened? I mean, first you get depressed, then you start not caring - the rolling your eyes faze - and then, i guess, you just want to cheer for something... i don't want to see a run for the next (however many it takes to break some records) innings!!
RW
What's ironic is: if they Jays runner weren't running with the pitch the Indians 2nd baseman would not have been in that position. The Jays would've scored a run. At worst, bases loaded nobody out.
Anonymous, you are a sick bastard. The Jays are a shitty team but they're our shitty team.
Just bitch and complain like the rest of us.
We're winning this cocksucker! Yee hawww.
Be depressed with enthusiasm.
I know - it's a questionable attitude to have. But everyone watching/submitting shit knows we're going to lose 2-0 (or, god help us, 2-1), so why not have fun with it? And besides, it's a fairly natural reaction. These bastards - the Jays offense - are fucking around with us, so I'm going to fuck right back. Although if Scutaro hits a walk-off homer in the bottom of the 15th for the 1-0 win, I'm back on the bandwagon. I'm a slut that way...
RW
Unassisted triple play...
How often does that happen?! Once or twice a week tops!
(The way things are going for the Jays, it could almost be said without as much sarcasm)
Exactly, Wheeler. Cabrera was already moving in to cover 2nd when the ball was hit. Everything Gibby touches these days turns to diarrhea.
Now if someone would be so kind as to inform me of what the record for scoreless innings is, I could put things in perspective...
It's the rarest event in baseball. There have been 17 perfect games, and 14 unassisted triple plays. ever. ever.
At the very least, we all got to see something remarkably cool.
Now if someone would be so kind as to inform me of what the record for scoreless innings is, I could put things in perspective...
Ok - anyone up for a wager on WHEN the Jays score their next run.
I am thinking 6th inning tomorrow night in Minnisota.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MLB_individual_streaks#Pitching
33 and 1/3 is the jays record LOL
they'll beat that... (in a bad way)
Anonymous: I agree, if I was a Jays starting pitcher I'd be spending my 4 days between starts putting together a De Niro type setup from the movie Taxi Driver. Then, I'd compose a people to kill list like Buscemi's character in Happy Gilmore.
Stoeten: It's all about putting pitchers in a position to succeed and Gibbons doesn't do that. I understand if you don't have a good bullpen that you are forced to try and get that extra inning out of your starting pitcher but by pushing Burnett from 102 pitches to 117, you went from having a punchers chance of coming back with this offense in the 9th down 1 run, to having no shot of winning down 3.
Secondly, this is AJ Burnett who started today. Someone who is not exactly durable and has not pitched that great so far this season. So, instead of running him out for the 8th, why not thank him, give the ball to anyone except Downs or Ryan and say thanks for the great job. That way you've still got essentially a full bullpen for the second game today and you let AJ continue to build off what would have been consecutive great starts.
Finally, I'm not a Gibbons fan but I agree that the firing of the manager or coach is rarely the answer to all a teams problems. However, in this case I think you make the move as I don't believe it's going to be difficult to find someone who is better at both handling the bullpen and lineup composition.
But how can you say he doesn't put pitchers in a position to succeed when all that this pitching staff does is succeed?
It's plain and simple. Even if Gibbons doesn't deserve to get fired, he needs to be.
There has to be a change. The players need a new way of looking at shit. A different atmosphere.
Look at their roster. Fuck, it shouldn't be this way.
How many close games have we lost? How many times have we lost leads or fallen behind from the 7th inning this year?
Our starting pitchers have been fantastic but it's not their job to throw much more than 100 pitches in today's baseball. If you can get them to give you 7 innings you're well ahead of the game.
i just don't know what to post anymore, every adjective has been used to describe this anemic offense. i guess the excuse tonight could be they are facing a guy with a 0.80 ERA, but he's gotta come back to earth at some point, right? Why not tonight? Because this is your 2008 Toronto Blue Jays. I'm looking towards '09, this is a fucking joke, i really feel depressed
jawn, definitely agree, something has to be done, even if it isn't Gibby's fault. Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Let his ass go, even if it is unfair, which it really is
You can definitely go beyond 100 pitches. It all depends on the situation. And 9 times out of 10 I'm taking a inning of these starters with 100 pitches under their belt over any of the lesser bullpen guys. Maybe more than 9 of 10.
They're losing close games because they can't score runs to save their lives.
Jawn, that's ridiculous. No, he doesn't HAVE to be fired at all. Those are the kind of cliches that make me waver back the other way.
Ok i have been one to bitch about the lineups the jays have been sending out there - but to be fair to Gibbons, he really does not have a lot of choices these days (or he has too many bad choices to make)
His regular best players are struggling or injured. I am sure Gibbons would have loved to have sent out this lineup up from the start of the season
C- Zaun
1B - Overbay
2B - Hill
3B - Rolen
SS - Eckstein
LF - Stewart/Stairs
CF - Wells
RF - Rios
DH - Thomas
Overbay has struggled, Hill has struggled - Rolen was injured, Eckstein and Macdonald are hurt. Stewart has been brutal, Stairs is now the LH DH platoon, Wells has struggled and is now injured - Rios has struggled and Thomas really struggled.
I think the only position where the production is about what we expected at the beginning of the year is from our catchers.
I find it hard to blame Gibbons when he has to pick between guys like Mench, Inglett, Wilkerson and Scutaro to fill out your day to day line up. (i know my 1st post on this thread was complaining that Gibbons gives his regulars way too many days off - a knee jerk reaction to seeing Joe Inglett in LF.)
And as Stoeten said - how can you blame a guy for mismanaging a pitching staff when it has been one of the best in the league for the past two years.
Cliches? What? Think about it man. A new manager would bring a whole new energy and whatever else to the team.
Should we keep being patient until it's too late? What else can you do but get a new manager.
Beyond being even more patient or getting even more players, what could you do besides fire the manager?
Cliches? Please.
I'm not saying that you pull a pitcher at 100 pitches but lets look at the Indians series. Halladay over 100 pitches blows up on Friday and Burnett over 100 today turns a game where we had a small chance of coming back to a game where we had no chance.
According to ESPN.com we have lost 11 games this year when we have either been tied or ahead going into the 7th inning. To me that reeks of bullpen mismanagement.
Great and now we're sacrificing with a man on 1st. Fuck me.
Warren, the Jays have lost lots of close games because the offense has been complete shit, not because of our bullpen.
I can only think of one maybe two games this year, where I feel the bullpen gave us an L where we deserved a W.
fuck!
a new manager would have made that ball to drop :)
just snakebit, this is other worldly
Clutch!
Clutch x2
I don't get the hate-on for Inglett. I love the guy. The last time he was here, I remember him getting some timely hits and playing good defense. Considering how in a slump Stewart was, why not shake things up a bit?
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