Rock Bottom
An unassisted triple play. Are you seriously fucking shitting me? How fucking ridiculously appropriate is that? This is officially fucked. Fuck you, Baseball Gods. That's just cruel.
Yet... how do you not laugh at that? Cleveland's first unassisted triple play since Game 5 of the 1920 World Series. The fourteenth fucking ever in the goddamn history of the fucking sport of fucking baseball! Fuck!!!!
I just had Red Sox fan living in Montreal pony up the long distance charges to call me up laugh. And laugh and laugh and laugh. Oh, good times! Thanks Gabe! Though he did at least have the heart to remind me that he'd suffered through 20 years of calls like that from friends who are Yankees fans...
Well... it just can't get any goddamn worse than this, can it? And that seems to be where I've kind of settled in my long-running inner monologue about whether or not it makes sense to fire John Gibbons. It sure as fuck can't make things any worse.
And besides, my thoughts matter not at this point. JP isn't in Cleveland to brush up on his shit-related sexual manoeuvres . If I'm a betting man, and I am, my money says that Gibbers is on a flight to Toronto to clean out his office while the team goes on to Minneapolis tonight. . .
So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
Posts
111 comments:
Doubt it... JP doesn't lie.
wait, what?
at least they added a download link to your podcast?
I have decided that if this team could hit, they'd be 30-10 right now. I base this on my experience playing RBI Baseball with awesome pitching and hitting that worked as I imagined it would.
If it takes dumping Gibbons to make that happen, well, then I guess it was a good run.
Yeah, the podcast setup is way better this week.
So if this goes down, Butters takes over for the interim and who's his bench coach? Can Whitt bench coach from first base?
Also i never really thought of using sopcast or tvants to stream the jays. I just tried the one stream available and remembered why. Best to just stick with the radio. Maybe someday they'll actually introduce a-la carte cable and then i'll bother paying for it.
Look Gibby is not hitting for the team,but he's the one that initiated the hit and run that lead to the triple play....It's enough already,Cleveland has very good pitching but this crap is really grating.
A Red Sox fan from Montreal....they hate Quebecers in Boston!Oh well,he'll probably become a Rays fan when they hit first place soon........
Hey anonymous, if you would have read the Globe's letters to the editor or whatever it was called today, you'd know that it's not "lead," but led.
How shocking the Jays are in a 0-0 game.
I don't think there is anything you can really say about the Jays. Even the worst teams don't hit as poorly as this.
I woud clean house right now, JP gone, Gibby gone all the coaches gone. You think its rash of course it is but when you have the best pitching in the league getting wins should not be tough.
I realize the players make the difference but at some point they just need a fresh start. there is only so many times the same manager can plead with the guys to hit. Maybe we should bring back Cito
He's a transplanted Bostonian. Or Cape Cod somewhere, I believe.
You're really going to shit on Gibbons for sending the runners in that situation? Dude. That's absolutely ridiculous. Um... I don't think you can fault Gibbons for not having the foresight to avoid something happening that has only happened 14 other times in like 120 years of baseball.
My vote for the interim manager, if only because of the awesome fun it would be: JP MOTHERFUCKING RICCIARDI.
Anon. Even though I disagree with the house cleaning entirely, I especially disagree with Arnsberg getting lumped in with all the coaches.
Plus, JP has this team in a whole lot better position that people give him credit for, even if this lineup inexplicably isn't hitting.
This. is. incredible.
Here's the thing about the total housecleaning idea. I think you have to keep in mind that this team is the RC Cola of the AL East, so... you kind of have to temper your expectations, even in the best of times.
so how many times now have the jays been jobbed by some ridiculous web gem?
Is it me? or is Lee getting away with so many 92 MPH fastballs over the middle of the plate with barely any movement?
Finally a single with RISP...
Is it enough to score a run? FUCK NO!
Do you think if the Jays manage to win this game 1-0 it will save Gibbons job.
I don't think the JP is doing a terrible job but I am not entirely impressed with his knee jerk reactions of the players out in left field.
He just seems like a guy who players shouldn't really trust as he has screwed over a few of them. Even just think of the Zaun contract talks when they didn't want him then got him back cause they had no one else. JP has really mangled some situations but you do have to give him credit on some of the trades he has made as well
FUCK OFF
Hahaha. Of course. Of course. What the fuck does this team have to do...
Also that Rolen for Glaus trade was fantastic
what in the shit! i curse you baseball gods!
fuck me - twice in the same innings
SWEET FUCK! I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE!
My head assploded.
Anon. I really don't think it will. It might prolong things, though, if the damn Indians keep making incredible plays to rob them. It would be hard to walk in and fire a guy after getting robbed this hard. But that's entirely me talking out my ass.
All of this is pure speculation, really. I honestly know nothing of anything going on, except that it's odd that Ricciardi has showed up and mid-road trip is the standard time to fire a guy, and it sure seems like it's time to do it.
Ha, I knew that ball was hanging up out there as soon as they cut to the wide angle. Any other team, that ball drops, though, it seems.
ok, 18 scoreless innings in a single day - this has to be closing in on a major league record, right? i have no idea where you'd find such information (or if you could, since today is technically a double header, etc)....but you gotta figure 20-22 innings is the absolute max for one calendar day, right?
Someone needs to be fired....NOW. This is just too embarassing to the franchise to not make some kind of move and hold someone accountable for the shit that we have to watch this season.
Also, it's 31 innings overall without a run for the Jays.
http://www.jonco48.com/blog/RockBottom.jpg
Yes, aaron, John Gibbons totally shit the bed in his motivation of Mench there, eh? Jim Leyland would have made sure that ball dropped.
it would make me feel better.
And are you serious - random?...how bad does this team need to play for the last few years before there is a "reason" to fire someone
Aaron, what??? There's really no need to be so hasty. Yeah, this is FUCKING FRUSTRATING AS ALL FUCK, but you can't really think it's a good idea to go around firing everybody you can point a finger at...
They can't even injure the opposing pitcher properly.
Runners on base.. feeling that familiar twitching between the legs. I can't be disappointed again, can I?
well I actually wanted them to clean house last season...so maybe i'm just more frustrated than most....maybe a new hitting coach will solve our problems?? Yeah! that should do it!
uhoh Stewart is up and his love of the groundball
Thank fuck STEWART! Shut some of these people up.
Run = boner = PLAYOFFS!
Heyyy we got one! 31 more innings until the next!
NO WAY! NO WAY! NO WAY!
Here's the thing about the total housecleaning idea. I think you have to keep in mind that this team is the RC Cola of the AL East, so... you kind of have to temper your expectations, even in the best of times.Quote
The Jays are slowly becoming the No Frills version of Coke in the division rather than the RC Cola.At this point,the Rays might be the RC Cola.Fans should have has some expectations when people in the media are telling you that the Jays are dangerous.When you hear things like the best 1-12 in the AL from other GMs and the such.BUT there were people here in NYC,who said the Rays would come in third and the Jays in 4th.
BTW,some Yankee fans down here are complaining about their team.They might be demoted to the RC cola of the AL East .The mighty Yankees have some worried fans as well.
Aaron, exactly. I've been a fan all my life like the rest of you guys.
I don't like seeing this crap. It's embarrassing. Take some fuck'n pride and change things. A coaching change is a big thing and it couldn't hurt.
Gibby will be looked upon as a victim when it's all said and done. Shit happens. Wow runs.
Cancel that. Keep gibby.
Playoffs...?
Holy fuck I haven't been this excited in weeks... or drunk. well maybe drunk. still, go jays!
We just bounced off rock bottom.
stoeten - all this does is prolong our inevitable mediocrity....I really don't understand all the jays' apologists....what is it you are defending exactly?
Aaron... I really think JP has got some OK players in the minors, some good young players signed to good contracts (Vernon not withstanding) and a lot of good pieces under control for a long time. It's like I said about RC Cola, things, in the big picture, are far from being fucked. At least, that's how I try to look at it...
Yankees fans should be worried. That staff is really pretty fucking awful from the little I've seen.
Aaron, the only surefire way to avoid inevitable mediocrity is to have a huge payroll. That's not a possibility.
By the way, no mention of Marcum in these comments, who was absolutely boners tonight, again.
Fucking killed it, as did the Beejer. Let's hope Downs can hold it down.
You guys sound like you are drinking the J.P. kool aid...yes - I get that we play in a very tough division....but it's not like we are winning 95 games a year and just falling short due to our tough division. J.P. has had an opportunity to increase our payroll by over 25% the last few years with nothing to show for it. I understand that we have had injuries and underperformances but that is also part of the game. You are judged on your performance - wins - that's it and that's how J.P. should be judged.
Stoeten - I am very interested in who you think we have in the minors that is great...(other than Snider) It's funny because my biggest problem with J.P. is the incredibly putrid farm system he has cultivated since his arrival. Maybe I am missing something.
j - Marcum is awesome and the only good player J.P. has managed to get for out team in 7 years (and yes - I do not include Hill - and yes, I expect to get crap for that comment but I have my reasons).
I feel very bad for our staff.
*Crap that aaron asked for*
Aaron... I think it's defending the idea that "different" isn't necessarily going to be magically better, which I think is what a lot of people think. It's defending the idea that in baseball, where the season is extremely long, where player development takes an extremely long time, where building a successful organization takes a really long time, it doesn't make sense to argue for rash, emotionally charged decisions without trying to understand as much as possible about the big picture of where a franchise and a season is at. And when you look at where the Jays are compared to where Ricciardi brought them from, I personally think they're a lot better off. People get really indignant about "results", but good results are a culmination of a lot of things, and I think that every year that he's been operating post-payroll-slashing, you can see how Ricciardi has strengthed things all over the place-- the idea being that he the results will follow. I believe this as well.
So, what has he done? They have the right players locked up and, except for Vernon (whose contract is not good, but not a complete albatross-- he still has value), generally with reasonable contracts, or better. They have some great young pitching under control for years. They are finally starting to see some studs coming through their farm system. Every year, on paper, they've looked more and more like legitimate contenders.
Maybe it sounds stupid-- and this goes back to the RC Cola thing-- but apart from the results, this team is OK. That's not exactly acceptable, but as long as I can still believe that they aren't about to take a step back, I don't see the point of undoing it.
We fucking win!
This may be the happiest I've ever been.
I haven't been commenting here as much lately, because I don't know what's more frustrating.....this team, or it's fans.
Gibbons should be fired because the hitters are sucking collective shit right now, but Gibbons deserves no credit for the dominant pitching? I guess pitchers don't need motivational speeches, right?
I mean, it's Gibby's fault he has to run some baby shit combo of fucking Hor-hay Valendia, Marco Scutaro, Rod Barajas, Shannon Stewart, Kevin fucking Mench, Brad fucking Wilkerson, etc out there every day.
Aaron...
There look to be some decent prospects in some lower levels. There are high hopes for Brett Cecil. Some of the pitchers in AAA look serviceable, or maybe better. There are a few guys floating around the system who look decent.
I don't want to sugar coat it too much, but the thing about the JP's draft record is, for a number of years he was taking cheap talent that would get to the majors as quickly as possible, and therefore help reduce payroll by taking up MLB roster spots on the cheap. There were a lot of lower upside guys that makes his results look, in my opinion, worse than they really are-- plus, he still did quite well, particularly with Hill and Marcum.
A lot of the bad rap the system gets is also to do with the fact that he dumped his scouting department right away didn't exactly endear him to the scouting community. But... yeah partly also because for a long time it's been crap. But it appears to be starting to turn around as he's starts to make some higher-reward picks.
^^ was supposed to end in a ?? You know, rhetorical question. fuck off.
but at least we took one game from the Steamers. Maybe tomorrow I'll only be 62% depressed.
Does anyone remember that study finding that the Jays have the most success in the majors with converting their draft picks into major leaguers? How is that not a huge testament to JP's scouting ability?
Can someone find that study?
Aaron: Well said. The Jays are obviously not that close to anything. Shit the way things are going it will be a battle to stay out of last place this year and Baltimore and TB are only going to get better. Can we say the same thing about our Toronto Blue Jays?
I disagree in regards to the farm system. The Jays have a lot of good young talent. Snider is going to be very good and I think that Lind is going to be able to help in the second half of the season. Don't let this years false start and last year's poor showing (he clearly wasn't ready but had to play due to our injury situation) sour you on him. Plus there's Brett Cecil, David Purcey and Brandon League pitching wise and all are close to being ready for the show.
Justin Jackson, Trystan Magnuson, and Kevin Aherns just to name a few.
I like Jackson the best... athletic, fast, good bat control, bit of power, and a shortstop.
Not to mention: Lind, Marcum, Hill, Janssen, Litsch, Purcey, and Snider. That's 7 ML caliber starters drafted in his first 5 years. How many teams are that successful in the draft? The draft is a complete crapshoot and he has those 7 plus any other late bloomers, plus last year's class which looks great. So yea, JP's the man.
I can understand the Jays fans frustrations though. I think this year is a great opportunity to make the playoffs. If you look around there are not many solid teams in the AL who are better than the Jays talent wise. Usually Sox and Yanks are automatic for the playoffs but the Yankees don't have the pitching and the wild card is right there for the Jays to take.
Also, I think JP talkd up this team way too much, they have good players also good players in the minors. These guys will be a solid team for years but are still a solid free agent signing away from the playoffs.
I think Lind should be playing in the outfield right now as he will be a productive player in the majors. One player does not significantly impact a teams offensive output
sp - I would love to see that study....please post if you can get your hands on it.
Stoeten - part of me is very happy that there are fans like you who stick with this team despite the years and years of disappointment.....who actually defend this team and try to find the bright spots and silver linings.....and then there is part of me that feels sad because these same diehard fans (as exeplified by this incredible blog) have resigned themselves to thinking that mediocrity is ok and as long as things aren't getting worse, it's ok.
I appreciate your optimism but I've personally just had it with this team....I can't stand J.P. the person, nevermind the G.M. and feel that he has had his opportunity to make this team a winner. I realize you say this takes time but I believe 7 years is enough time.
I also agree that cleaning house isn't going to necessanrily turn this team around - but I think we have to give someone else a chance to do this.
Andrew - I'm sure that a couple years ago we were talking about a bunch of similar type surefire propects who have never been heard from again....a prospect doesn't mean much unless he becomes a good big leaguer (and yes I realize it takes time....it's been 7 years).
sp - marcum is the only one on your list who is even remotely proven in the majors (and that's if you count one year of above average pitching - 4.13 era and 2 months of lights out pitching). I think we are a little far off from calling Lind, Purcey, Litsch and Snider ML quality starters.
No GM is going to go 100% (or even close) in his judgment of young talent....but before we go licking J.P.'s popsicle on our "young studs" in single and double A...let's remember:
Ricky Romero
Zach Jackson
Josh Banks
Russ Adams
Gabe Gross
Jason Arnold (acquired)
John-Ford Griffen (acquired)
The trade for Griffen and Arnold was horrible, no question but I think it's too soon to write of Romero and it doesn't really matter what happens with Zach Jackson as we were able to sell high on him in order to get Overbay. Adams is a borderline bust who is guilty more of falling out of favor with JP than proving he's not a major league caliber player. That leaves Gabe Gross who I believe was drafted by Gord Ash.
How you can defend JP is beyond me?
How many bad moves has he made in just the past few years?
His cycling of players at 3rd base since Eric Hinske.
The rubbish we've had at short-stop until Johnny Mac and then after rewarding him with a contract after a phenomenal year he gets Eckstein a few months later, who incidentally knocked a whole 31 runs in, exactly the same as JMac last year, and has yet to throw a ball to first base that I had full confidence that it would actually make it there.
The treatment of Reed Johnson and Adam Lind. Lind should have been up this year from the start with Stairs to play DH and LF when he needed a rest. But no he messes Reed around, signs Stewart, brings up Lind, sends down Lind, gets Mench and Wilkerson. Tell me would you sooner have Lind working out his kinks every day or a parade of has-beens who long term will do nothing for the club.
How about the way he's used McGowan. All scouts acknowledged he had mind-blowing stuff but he was bounced up and down to the minors, and from starter to reliever just because he couldn't get instant results. Only injuries have given us the chance to see him develop, but for them JP would probably have him languishing in the minors.
Wells' contract is ridiculous. He's a great fielder but his bat is seriously flawed. He had one great year when he batted in front of Delgado but does that earn him superstar money? It shouldn't have. If he swings and misses at one more shoulder high fast ball I will rip my eyes out.
And Thomas! Jesus! 2 years plus a 10M option. Didn't we all go WTF when JP inked that baby? Now we've had to eat 10M of that to prevent us spending an extra 10M. Great idea. Let me see. Glaus' legs are fucked so why not let him DH?
And the farm system sucks. I think 7 or 8 of our top 10 prospects have come from the last draft. So what have all the other drafts unearthed? Basically we have nothing in our farm system so all the new signing are a better bet than the shit we have. We have 1 position player (not counting Lind) ready to make an impact in maybe 2 years. Are you kidding me? All the rest, newly drafted are at least 3 years away and there are no guarantees they'll remain good prospects as they move up the ladder.
The man has no plan. It's all instant gratification. Get what I can now, fuck everybody else, keep my job. The sooner he leaves the better.
There endeth the rant.
I don't understand why you have to be the turd in everyone's punch bowl, man. You keep saying seven years. This is kind of a fallacy. JP's first year was spent completely tearing the team apart and slashing payroll to almost nothing. He's really only had two and a quarter seasons of a respectably sized payroll. Sure he's made some moves that haven't worked out, but so has every other GM in the history of baseball. Every move he's made has been defensible. You pretty much have to acknowledge that on paper this team looks pretty half decent, which is obviously all JP can control.
I wont defend JP cuz i think hes a stupidbitchwhore however i will defend his drafts, since hes been here we've had 1 draft pick in the top 10.
how many studs do u excpect to have? not everyone can shitplay a storm of shittyness like the rays did for many years and aqcuire that many high draft picks.
Also, GM's take a tonne of shit for drafting poorly, but very few GM's actually control the draft. For the most part, it's all done by scouting directors.
Aaron (Anonymous 11:07, I'll get to you in a minute)
Fair enough. It HAS been a long time. And it's not OK that they're mired in mediocrity year after friggin' year. But I also think that, I know that when I looked at this year's team going in, I had no inkling that they could ever play this bad, and I'm sure neither did JP, and I think most reasonable evaluators would have said that this team would be an average hitting American League lineup-- which, if the pitching was as good as it's been, this would be a very good team. I just don't know how much you can expect the GM to do beyond putting together a team that looked like, if it performed the way it should, would be right there in the playoff race all the way to the end. I also... I'm not really counting this year towards the whole mediocrity thing, because I still do genuinely believe that they're not nearly as bad as they've played and they have plenty of time to get back into it. If they aren't and they don't, at the end of the season I'll be a whole lot closer to where you are, but that's part of what I'm saying about not making rash decisions. You'd be really selling low on a GM who's putting together teams who look good on paper, and strengthening the minor league system, and keeping the contract situations in reasonable order, who, for whatever reason, couldn't put it together on the field at the major league level. I don't think that means JP is incapable of doing that. I really think it's inexplicable and have a hard time faulting the guy enough to say I think he should lose his job, when I really do think he's put together a good team that just happens to be, to a man, performing way below any reasonable expectation. I understand the frustration with the lack of results, but I think you have to be willing to accept that-- especially in baseball-- things just aren't always going to work out the way you want, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're doing anything wrong. It's the same thing as a lot of the managerial moves that always get shat on. When Gibbons makes a reasonably sound move and it doesn't work out a lot of fans want to use hindsight and skewer him and expect him to have seen something nobody else did. As frustrated as I am when those moves don't work out, I don't at all agree that you can expect him to have that sort of foresight. To me, of all his major responsibilities, the on-field results are probably one of the things a GM has the least amount of control over-- in a way, at least. I mean, he has to put the best possible team that he can on the field, and apart from the Bonds thing that I don't think is his call, you could argue at the start of the season that JP had, or at least come reasonably close. Or at least, I could. If you do that and the players slump, they don't execute, they're mismanaged, they get injured, yes, you have to try to rectify the situation, but JP is absolutely trying, and from what I've seen, I just have no fucking clue what he could do here. Again, I can't really fault him for not having a magical solution.
I really do know it sounds stupid, but apart from the results not being there, I think he's done well.
(And to me, as an apologist, I think you have to consider his first three years at least as sort of separate, because of how he needed to cut payroll.)
Anon - you sound like you get most of your arguments straight from Bob McCown. At any rate, let me just quickly go through a few of your points:
1. What the hell is wrong with changing players at 3rd base so often? If a guy isn't working out, why stick it out? Why not improve the ball club when you can? To go from, basically, Hudson to Glaus to Rolen is awfully good. They also got Brian Wolfe for Koskie, who hasn't done much of anything since he left Toronto. They might have changed a lot, but what they've ended up with is better than what they had. That's really what we all want, isn't it?
2. Stop worrying about left field. All these guys we talk about are fringe players on the team and whatever choice they'd made, it's unlikely it would have changed anything in terms of the team's results. Personally I'd like to see Lind out there more, but he got his shot and didn't look good at all (and he wasn't all that great last year either).
3. McGowan was coming last year one way or another, it was just a matter of time. People who follow the team know that. The idea was to start him in AAA and bring him up later. He got off to a great start there last year, and as it ended up, he came in May. But the fact is that he was coming at some point last year - he had to, as he was (I think) "out of options" after last season.
4. Fretting about the $'s doesn't make sense. There isn't a single example of a guy they Jays have wanted in the last few years but haven't been able to get due to budgetary considerations.
5. Go look at what other teams have managed out of the draft picking at similar spots to the Jays. Baseball, more than any other sport is a crapshoot in the draft.
Just frustration. If we were hitting well I'd probably be calling JP a king right now.
I never listen to McCown.
I do like our line-up. I think 1-9 it's pretty good and it's an aberration that we can't hit at the minute.
It's just so frustrating because all of a sudden we have 5 guys who can pitch.
Oh yeah and Rolen is the boy.
I couldn't find the study that I mentioned earlier, but I did find something similar. Click on my name for the link.
Oh and I know some of you are gonna take Ash's dick out of your mouths for a second and say "MOST OF THOSE WERE ASH'S PICKS!!". Fine, but keep in mind this is from last year so it doesn't include guys like Marcum, Litsch, Janssen, Snider, etc.
Fire Gary Denbo!
I think a lot of the hate for JP stems from what people think of him as a person. Maybe it's deserved with the lying and just the sort of used car salesman vibe he has going on. But who gives a fuck about him personally? You don't have to hang out with him on the weekend. The only thing that should matter is the team he assembles. And, given the constraints he's working with, I think he's done a pretty good job of that.
" but JP is absolutely trying, and from what I've seen, I just have no fucking clue what he could do here. Again, I can't really fault him for not having a magical solution."
I'm sorry stoeten, but this makes no sense. You HAVE to fault him.
Sure, you can use injuries as an excuse, but EVERY team has been derailed with massive injuries. Yanks - Posada ARod, Sox - Lowell Schilling (many regs also with short injuries), Rays - Kazmir...
The fact is that last year the Jays used injuries as an excuse and pointed to the bottom of their order, Clark/Phillips/McDonald and say how the heck were we supposed to contend with that? Well, when you roll out Marco Scutaro as your DH with Inglett and Barajas, where's the difference? This team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO COMPETE IN THE AL EAST. The hitting simply isn't there and probably wasn't when the year started. Without Thomas and Wells? Forget about it. For the JP to sit back and twiddle his thumbs and pick up Wilkerson/Mench and pretend this is the solution is sheer lunacy. An impact bat is a MUST, and I don't care if you need to pay with pitching to get it. There are a ton of guys out there that could be had. Off the top of my head you have Dunn Bay NJohnson Bradley CDuncan Burrell...and I'm sure with time I could scan team by team and come up with more guys who might be available.
A quarter of the season has gone by, and it's time to stop saying "well if these guys performed up to their norms..." This offense has sucked since the 2006 All Star break when everybody but Glaus was hitting .300, and to ignore that is just silly.
warren - the reason for my post - "let's remember.."....wasn't so much as to detail J.P.'s abject failure at finding young talent but moreso to show that we shouldn't get too caught up in discussing the "young phenoms" in our minor league system who haven't even played a major league game yet nevermind contribute anything of value. And we certainly shouldn't be praising J.P. for these same players quite yet.
Long is the way, and hard, that out of last place in the East leads up into light.
1:1 Fatguy
"Dunn Bay NJohnson Bradley CDuncan Burrell"
You know the asking price starts with either Marcum or McGowan, right? In the case of someone like Burrell, Philly would probably ask for Marcum+Lind+something.
stoeten - all good points. I disagree with many of the moves J.P. has made over his tenure but will agree that this team had the potential to do much better and has failed due to many unforseen circumstances.
Yes, and I would trade Marcum for any of Dunn Bay Burrell without thinking twice. Of course Dunn and Burrell would have to come with extensions.
Johnson Bradley Duncan wouldn't be that expensive. And the point was that there are things that can be done out there, not just sit back and say these are good hitters let's hope they turn it around.
I know how amazing Marcum is pitching, but it would be nice if JUST ONCE JP would actually sell high on a commodity instead of being high when he makes most of his personnel decisions.
How you can defend JP is beyond me?
I'll try, and I'll try to keep it civil if at all possible. I'll even agree with you on some of this.
How many bad moves has he made in just the past few years?
His cycling of players at 3rd base since Eric Hinske.
This is a point Bob McCown always makes too, and I really don't get it. As far as I can see, every 3B has been better than the next, no? So... he shouldn't be trying to get better players? I understand that maybe it looks bad that they keep having different players there, but so what? If it were the other way and JP started with Rolen and had wound up with Shitske I think there was some substance to this, but considering the position has very clearly got better, I don't at all see how this is a complaint.
The rubbish we've had at short-stop until Johnny Mac and then after rewarding him with a contract after a phenomenal year he gets Eckstein a few months later, who incidentally knocked a whole 31 runs in, exactly the same as JMac last year, and has yet to throw a ball to first base that I had full confidence that it would actually make it there.
This I kind of agree with, except that Eckstein isn't here for RBIs, so that's not really a great point to argue. He's a leadoff guy-- supposedly. I don't know... I've always been of the belief that Mac saves you enough runs to offset carrying his bat, but very obviously this team's problem isn't defence, it's hitting. So I have a really hard time faulting them for playing a SS who is clearly a better hitter. As for the years of shit at this position, it happened to Ash, too. And it's not like JP hasn't tried, through the draft, to get one, he just probably gave up too soon (though Tulowitzki isn't, I don't think, as good as people would like you to believe). In general though, I fucking love Johnny Mac and think that when healthy he should definitely be playing more.
The treatment of Reed Johnson and Adam Lind. Lind should have been up this year from the start with Stairs to play DH and LF when he needed a rest. But no he messes Reed around, signs Stewart, brings up Lind, sends down Lind, gets Mench and Wilkerson. Tell me would you sooner have Lind working out his kinks every day or a parade of has-beens who long term will do nothing for the club.
Now... this is kinda bullshit. Kind of. I do think that Lind was definitely not given a fair shake when he came up this year, however, JP's taking a flyer on Wilkerson (Mench isn't in the conversation, because he's really just the RH side of the DH platoon). He's wanted Wilkerson for a long time and he happened to be available. I'm sure he's only here to see if he can spark anything-- not as a permanent solution at all. Personally, I don't expect him to be here long. And even though I don't think Lind had enough time, I understand that the GM is trying to do fucking anything to get this team to start hitting, so... why not? If Wilkerson gets hot, it's a great move, if not, and if Stewart doesn't, Lind comes back. It's a low risk high reward kind of thing, and I don't think it hurts the team or Lind much to have him back in the minors for a little bit-- though I personally would have given him a lot more of a trial.
Reed Johnson? I've been over this too many times, but I'll say this: I'd rather a GM making sound baseball and business decisions than worrying too much about how he's treating people. And the Johnson thing was an unfortunate situation, but people seem to think that JP really hung him out to dry when the simple matter was that they'd wanted Stewart, Stewart initially said no, and then when Stewart became available again, they jumped. Considering how it worked out, it's too bad they had signed Reed instead on non-tendering him back in December like they wanted to, but I really don't think they should have hung onto him to spare his feelings if they though that, for baseball reasons, Stewart was a better fit-- which I do think was the case, though a lot of people want to argue that the baseball reasons weren't very sound.
How about the way he's used McGowan. All scouts acknowledged he had mind-blowing stuff but he was bounced up and down to the minors, and from starter to reliever just because he couldn't get instant results. Only injuries have given us the chance to see him develop, but for them JP would probably have him languishing in the minors.
Are you McCown? I really don't think that's true at all. They were really patient with McGowan, and if memory serves, some of the bouncing from starter to the bullpen was at Dusty's request. And while injuries and ineffective pitching did open the door for McGowan to come in that's pretty much the case with every pitcher. To me, this argument basically says that he should have started 2007 in the rotation then? Because that's a huge stretch based on his past performance at the time. Again, there really isn't any substance here. JP brought in experienced guys with the hope that some of them might succeed, and when they didn't (which was always, I believe, a consideration-- I mean, look at how quickly they cut bait) he brought in his best young pitchers. What more do you want?
Wells' contract is ridiculous. He's a great fielder but his bat is seriously flawed. He had one great year when he batted in front of Delgado but does that earn him superstar money? It shouldn't have. If he swings and misses at one more shoulder high fast ball I will rip my eyes out.
Wells' contract is definitely bad. But, it was the market value at the time, and it's not like he's a Kevin Brown or a Carl Pavano. He still has value, even if it might not be on par what his salary says. But so what? Also, Vernon has had two very good years, and three that were decent. He hits too high in the lineup and definitely isn't an elite, elite hitter, but he's still a very, very good player. Also, though I can't prove it, I kind of suspect that this contract had more to do with Godfrey than JP.
And Thomas! Jesus! 2 years plus a 10M option. Didn't we all go WTF when JP inked that baby? Now we've had to eat 10M of that to prevent us spending an extra 10M. Great idea. Let me see. Glaus' legs are fucked so why not let him DH?
And then who plays third base? But anyway, I do agree with you that this contract turned out bad. Very bad. But, the Jays needed the bat and, even though at the time it was dubious, it unfortunately looks a lot worse in hindsight. At the time my biggest concern was that Thomas wouldn't stay healthy-- not that he'd decline-- so I looked at the vesting option as decent insurance for the Jays if Thomas couldn't play. Obviously I was wrong and it worked out to be completely the opposite. This and the McDonald thing are all I'm really agreeing with you on so far, though, and to me it's hardly enough to can the guy.
And the farm system sucks. I think 7 or 8 of our top 10 prospects have come from the last draft. So what have all the other drafts unearthed? Basically we have nothing in our farm system so all the new signing are a better bet than the shit we have. We have 1 position player (not counting Lind) ready to make an impact in maybe 2 years. Are you kidding me? All the rest, newly drafted are at least 3 years away and there are no guarantees they'll remain good prospects as they move up the ladder.
The reason there aren't quite as many prospects in the system as you'd like is because they're contributing in the Majors (or in one case, hurt): Hill, Marcum, Janssen, and Litsch are excellent products of JPs drafts, and Overbay was acquired with JP picks as well. You also have to consider that his early-era goal was to draft guys who would get to the majors quickly, which limited a lot of the high-reward prospects that come out of highschool. Purcey looks like he'll be serviceable. Lind looks like he should be good. Snider, obviously. And yeah... a lot of decent looking guys out of the last draft class. To me, all things considered, that's not so bad. No, it's not the greatest farm system, but it's produced some very, very high quality major leaguers in Hill, Marcum and Janssen, and looks like there are more in the pipe. Realistically, I'm not sure what more fans could hope for.
The man has no plan. It's all instant gratification. Get what I can now, fuck everybody else, keep my job. The sooner he leaves the better.
There are just so many variables in player development, budgets, situations you can't anticipate, injuries, that to me it's really odd in the first place to think about a major league operation as having a "plan", as though you could write it down or something. Pretty sure it's a hugely complicated web of decisions that goes into running an organization. And, I mean,... what is any team's plan? If I could see a few examples of a clearly explained plan for some of the other MLB teams, maybe I could try to explain what I think JP's might be. Otherwise, it's just a straw man argument and pointless to argue. I really think someone should explain the Red Sox plan so we can copy it and send it to JP. Obviously he needs their plan.
There endeth the rant.
@ manute bol experience - turd in the punch bowl? really?....Am I missing something? Is everyone rejoicing at the way the Jays are playing?
From two of your recent posts - "a pretty good job of that" and "pretty half decent".....why are you so content with mediocrity?
All I'm really trying to say is instead of being a bunch of panicky, frustrated idiots, how about we step back and look back at what JP has done. If you honestly believe that he should be fired right now when he has assembled a team that (on paper) should compete, I don't know what else to tell you. We are a quarter of the way into this season and 5 games back of a playoff spot, and this team really could not be playing much worse at the moment. Is that really such a terrible situation? Don't you have some faith they'll turn it around? There's no way you can actually think this will end up being a worse offensive team than the '03 Tigers.
I believe the great Beane has said, "You have two months to see what you have and two months to fix it." We aren't even through the first two months yet. Let's at least wait until the end of July to see what develops.
It's not that I'm content with mediocrity, more that I'm trying to be rational. There are no magical solutions out there that will instantly vault them into contention (other than the one obvious one that isn't worth mentioning at this point).
I just don't really see why we have to fire him and basically wave the white flag. If this shit streak continues, I could understand making Gibby the sacrificial lamb. I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, but I could live with it. Canning JP just make no sense at this point.
Aaron, it's not being content with mediocrity, it's more like being realistic about the situation. Nobody wants the results to stay this way-- it's kind of a cheap shot to pull lines like "content with mediocrity"-- but a lot of people CAN see that the state of the team is maybe better than the results look. You can flail around ranting about results until you're blue in the face, but you need your whole organization to be setup in such a way that can produce those results. A lot of Jays fans think that theirs is, or is getting there, but just haven't found the right combination yet. I couldn't imagine there being a Jays fan who isn't torn apart about how frustrating this team has been so far. I should hope that nobody is content. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I try not to let the frustration overrun what I think about how this organization is put together. Looking at it as objectively as I can, I DO think you could make a case for firing the GM, but I think there's a stronger case for saying, "Hang on here. He's got all the pieces close... let's not quite pull the plug yet."
Also, it's ridiculous to even be talking like this with 122 games left.
Yeah. What Manute said.
Yeah. what stoeten and manute said. truth be told, I really do have it in me to be eloquent....but not right fucking now.
I was going to go with a "ditto", but then we would have to make pottery together or something. And that's just gay. Like, how-Buck-Martinez-looked-in-a-Jays-uniform-during-his-managing-days level gay.
oh yeah......PLAYOFFS!
"I know how amazing Marcum is pitching, but it would be nice if JUST ONCE JP would actually sell high on a commodity instead of being high when he makes most of his personnel decisions."
For real? Personally, I am very happy that the team has a GM who wouldn't make rash decisions like that, trying desperately to save this one season at the expense of your number two or three starter for the next four years or more. Especially when all the team needs is for the hitters to show up and come close to resembling the players that they've been in the past. Of course I have doubts it's going to happen, but personally, I'd rather roll those dice than make a move like you're suggesting and a) hope like hell the guy you pick up is exactly the piece to turn this offence around, and b) hope like hell that giving up Marcum doesn't bite you in the ass.
Anyway, more bold text...
I'm sorry stoeten, but this makes no sense. You HAVE to fault him.
Sometimes, like I said to someone else, there is no fault. Sometimes you do it right-- or reasonably so-- and it just doesn't work. That doesn't mean you're incapable of ever doing it right. And, as I've been saying, considering the way he seems to have the farm system and the contracts lining up in a reasonable order (at least in my opinion), I could still give him another crack for sure-- though I don't want to make it sound like I would give JP carte blanche for years and years to keep trying. I'm as frustrated as anyone, trust me. I just don't see what makes everyone think JP has been so wrong or that someone else will be so much better.
Sure, you can use injuries as an excuse, but EVERY team has been derailed with massive injuries. Yanks - Posada ARod, Sox - Lowell Schilling (many regs also with short injuries), Rays - Kazmir...
This is true. But I don't like it when excuse is used like a dirty word when it comes to injuries. If you're running Marco Scutaro and Joe Inglett out this much, there's a bit of a blurring between what is an excuse and what is a reason. I think it's completely fair to explain away 2007 based on injuries. This year, no. Especially with the pitching they've been getting, they should be winning more games. This team hitting as badly as they have, though, I think was fairly unforseeable. Not entirely. I mean, I know there were projections that didn't look good, there were a lot of people who didn't think they had the hitting, but... that was thinking that Wells wouldn't bounce back as much, and that Rolen wouldn't be what he's been so far. I think if you said in March that-- even with Thomas gone-- if Wells looked like the 2006 version and Rolen looked as good as he has in years (small sample size, I know) you'd have a decent hitting team on your hands. Obviously, you'd have been wrong-- at least to this point-- but to me that doesn't mean it was necessarily wrong to have thought so at the time.
The fact is that last year the Jays used injuries as an excuse and pointed to the bottom of their order, Clark/Phillips/McDonald and say how the heck were we supposed to contend with that? Well, when you roll out Marco Scutaro as your DH with Inglett and Barajas, where's the difference? This team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO COMPETE IN THE AL EAST. The hitting simply isn't there and probably wasn't when the year started. Without Thomas and Wells? Forget about it. For the JP to sit back and twiddle his thumbs and pick up Wilkerson/Mench and pretend this is the solution is sheer lunacy. An impact bat is a MUST, and I don't care if you need to pay with pitching to get it. There are a ton of guys out there that could be had. Off the top of my head you have Dunn Bay NJohnson Bradley CDuncan Burrell...and I'm sure with time I could scan team by team and come up with more guys who might be available.
By making statements, at this point in the season, like "this team isn't good enough to compete in the AL East", you're basically saying that Baltimore and Tampa are. Which is wrong (though I'm starting to believe a little more in those Rays, I must admit. But not really). I understand that people really, really can't stand thinking about it this way, but what you've seen on the field from the Jays so far is not necessarily exactly what this group is and always will be. No, I'm not saying they're going to turn around and light the world on fire, but it's crazy to think we've seen enough of them to declare that they're this bad and that if they didn't age and could play a million games exactly as themselves right now that they'd always be this bad.
Those moves that you call sheer lunacy are far from it. Mench has great numbers against LHP in his career and on a healthy team would face lefties as the DH while Stairs (.238 career against LHP) would only face right-handers. That's a cheap, low-risk move that has a decent likelihood of strengthening the team against LHP-- which has been a problem for them so far. It's a good move. Sorry.
Wilkerson, on the other hand, is just a flier. They're hoping he gets hot, sparks something, anything. It's not fair to look at it as though this is JP's grand solution-- that he sat down for hours and decided that this was the player who was going to cure their woes. Again, he's a cheap guy to take a flier on who has had some success in the past (though, it was a while ago, and I probably wouldn't have made the move myself.. but I can see how it's justifiable).
Most importantly, these guys won't cost you an asset...
I mean, it's fine if your opinion is that Marcum will never have higher value (probably true) and that he needs to be moved for one of those guys you mentioned, but I think that has a huge likelihood of backfiring on you, and that your chances of making the playoffs whether you make the move or not are probably about the same. Don't forget, your move puts Purcey in the rotation, and then when someone gets hurt who? The last time five Jays starters started 25 or more games was 1993-- and Al Leiter still put in 12, so there WILL be a sixth starter needed for some extended period, it's almost guaranteed.
A quarter of the season has gone by, and it's time to stop saying "well if these guys performed up to their norms..." This offense has sucked since the 2006 All Star break when everybody but Glaus was hitting .300, and to ignore that is just silly.
What you ignore about the phrase "if these guys performed up to their norms" is the second part: and there is no reason to expect that they won't-- or at least won't come close. Now... I say that hesitantly, because if I'm betting, I actually would say that it's likely that they won't, but I just think that's a whole lot more of a sound proposition to bank on than both Burrell, or whoever, being the spark that turns this team around AND Marcum falling back to earth forever and ever amen.
At this point I would rather sit through 122 more games of frustration, frankly, than to watch this team give up Marcum for less than he's worth. And the way he's going, that's what you're suggesting. And uh... Chris Duncan is going to solve this?!?
Selling high is not a rash decision. It's what good GMs do, and is something JP has never done.
And yes, you DO have to fault somebody. Because if you don't it sends the message to the fans that the team is okay with the mediocrity. Why did the Jays fire Brantley? Was he worse in 2007 than 2006. No. He was a sacrificial lamb. It wasn't his fault. There are only so many years/chances you can give JP before you HAVE to fault him.
I did NOT call the moves sheer lunacy, I called JP thinking they are the answer as sheer lunacy. And we will see if that's true, if he doesn't go out and get some more help. Judged individually these are nice, no risk pickups. But there's a reason Mench was in AAA for a bad Texas team and Wilkerson got released by offensively inept Seattle team. Again, since you had a hard time understanding the first time - if these pickups give JP a false sense of security in his offense and stops him from working the phones as vigorously, they were bad signings.
I also never suggested giving up Marcum for less than what he's worth. I also never suggested that Chris Duncan is going to solve THIS....I can go on and on about points you seem to fabricate and respond to.
Pointing to the last time the Jays made 25 starts is stupid. When was the last time they had a rotation good enough to?! The ChiSox have proved for me over the last 3 years that when you have a solid rotation you really only need 5 guys, maybe a 6th. With all the nice lines our SPs are putting up at Syracuse, I'm not shaking in my boots over the downgrade from Marcum to Purcey + 10 games from John Parrish.
We can probably duke this out all night, but in reality we will just be running in circles because it seems you pick out points you want to make and then just insert them anywhere and everywhere without actually reading what I'm writing and responding to it.
Attention Ari - JP Riccardi is not the GM of a fantasy team that he named the Toronto Blue Jays instead of "The Peter North Stars" or "Shot in the Alvin Dark". You don't "sell high" after 6 starts on a guy to light a fire under the offense. Having excellent and cheap starting pitching is what EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE WANTS.
The game is changing. Big, fat bats in the middle of the order are far less impactful than strong and cost-effective starting pitching. Trading an obviously gifted and durable pitcher now, with so many years of financial control still ahead would be madness.
The Chisox lost 90 games last year. That isn't much of an example. I don't think the point was their rotation was good enough to make 25 starts, it was when was their rotation healthy enough. That year their rotation was good and healthy, and they won 95 games.
This is too long, but I needed to speak up. Hopefully you heard me over the GO LEAFS GO din inside your head.
First of all, I absolutely HATE the Leafs.
The idea to "sell high" isn't to light a fire under the offense. Why do people keep responding to me by putting words in my mouth?!?! It's to actually GET some offense. Offense that isn't here currently, because the only players performing under their career marks are Rios, Hill, and Eckstein, and they aren't too far off. Unless of course you were and still are expecting Shannon Stewart to be something he's not. This offense stinks, and won't become good because all of a sudden a few players bring their abysmal lines up to their career marks.
Did you think it was madness when the Giants were considering taking Rios for Lincecum? Because essentially you just said you did. If the right piece/s come back, trading ANYONE makes sense.
As for the starting thing - I brought up the White Sox because I knew they had durable rotations the last few years. I am too lazy to go team by team, but I'm sure many teams that are confident in their 5 starting options heading into the year come out of the year having only thrown 6 starters. You are making it seem like you need 10 guys to get by, and the downgrade from Marcum to Purcey would be so astronomical that it isn't stomachable.
Hopefully you had time to read all that while you were whiping Stoeten's cum off your cheek as you both fantasized over Joanna.
I was the one that had the longstanding argument with sp the other day regarding gibbons. The funny part is that I actually have really liked JP's run after Ash left town. A GM isn't responsible for how players play the game, the last 2-3 years he's put together a line-up that every baseball pundit in North America saying if they caught some breaks they could challenge the big boys.
As far as I've seen JP has put together a team of players who if they were doing their jobs as they have over their careers, would be winning a lot more games.
JP will be around for the rest of the year. He won't be a knee-jerk firing during the season. Gibbons however doesn't have nearly as healthy of an argument going for him.
"the only players performing under their career marks are Rios, Hill, and Eckstein, and they aren't too far off."
ari, not sure what metric you're looking at, but if you look at OPS, that's not even close to being right. You'd need to add Wells and Overbay to that list for starters. Stairs is well below his career mark too, although he's old so that's to be expected to some extent. Besides Rolen, who has only been back for 2 weeks, none of their regulars are above their career average. Moreover, it's especially bad (and unexpected) when young players like Hill and Rios are below their career marks since you would generally expect them to be improving.
The Lincecom for Rios would have been absolute madness for the Giants. It would have cost Brian Sabean his job. I was all for it then and would (obviously) still be today. And why? Because cheap, good starting pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball.
Yes, this offense does stink. But if you don't think it improve when numerous everyday players improve back to the norm, you're a fool.
"But if you don't think it improve when numerous everyday players improve back to the norm, you're a fool."
"You'd need to add Wells and Overbay to that list for starters. Stairs is well below his career mark too, although he's old so that's to be expected to some extent."
Kill 2 birds with one stone :
Wells and Overbay, despite seeing drops in their SLG, both saw rises in their OBP to offset it. The production we have gotten thus far from the 2 of them is what you should reasonably expect from them over the course of a season, with the SLG going up as pitchers arms tire and the weather gets warmer into the summer. A lot of these early games have been played in single-digit Degrees.
Stairs is exactly where he should be vs RHP @ .293/.333/.457 and to expect anything more than that from a 40 year old journeyman is stupid.
Zaun is exactly where he should be.
Rios' .280/.348 line says he's seeing the ball pretty well (and as well as 06-07), it's just some SLG that is missing, because as you said, he should be able to improve upon his career SLG mark of .451.
Hill started off red hot and has cooled off, but he's the hitter I worry about the least. He will get better.
SS is a sinkhole, but we all knew that. Eckstein has been hitting like garbage, but I never thought he should start anyways. Scutaro has hit so much in their absense that he can probably not get a hit till Eck/JMac return and still have represented an offensive upgrade, so you can't blame SS.
Rolen has been tremendous. You can take all his extra SLG points and add them to Rios and Overbay, because if you don't, that's just strange. You can't bitch about one underahiever and ignore the overachiever.
What does all this add up to? The Jays have mediocre hitting, and can't be reaasonably expected to perform all that much better, except for with RISP. In which case stating that they are below their career norms is useless anyways. Rios, Hill, and Eckstein can be given moderate bumps in their lines in projections, but that's it.
The team is hitting exactly as it should be without a real LF or DH.
So you guys can sit back and wait for some of these clowns to raise their SLG 50 pts - I think, in my clearly erroneous opinion, that we have a dearth of pitching talent that needs to be taken advantage of and traded for another hitter, like the 2 we lost when we dumped Thomas because of 2009's contract and when Wells, far and away our best qualifying hitter this year, went on the DL.
Way too lazy to read it over so I hope this doesn't come out too bad.
If Thomas started hot I have no doubt he's still a Jay. Since he didn't, and still isn't hitting, let's just call that a wash. At least JP isn't sitting on his hands.
The Jays are going to turn it around without a trade... why? Because I'm a fan and I need to believe in something. I still think Bonds would be just what the doctor ordered. Take away the alleged clubhouse issues (fuck that, it's just more press... and ya know what the say, the only bad press is no press) and you got a LHB who gets on base and is the typical 'feared slugger'.
Oh well... he only has to think outside the box, not like its too hard.
To take something from the Mockingbird, since the Thomas trade the Jays have been hitting like irredeemable shit.
Vernon Wells: .246/.296/.400
Alex Rios: .240/.266/.373
David Eckstein: .212/.255/.346
Aaron Hill: .211/.263/.310
Shannon Stewart: .204/.259/.259
Rod Barajas: .194/.265/.226
Adam Lind: .053/.100/.053
Matt Stairs: .233/.281/.433
Seven players, none with an OBP over .300. The Jays have been hit by a fuckton of slumps all at the same time. You can stomp your feet at blame whatever the fuck you want for the Jays offence, but it's nobodies fault, except maybe for Aaron Hill, that Aaron Hill's hitting two-fucking-eleven. .211. He's not going to continue hitting that badly. That's simply not possible.
Look to trade Marcum for an impact bat is insane.Would the Red Sux or Tankees do that?Hell no.If the other team wanted a AAA ,AA or a reliever fine BUT not Dustin or Marcum,they need them next year because Burnett is leaving.If you want to trade Burnett for pieces fine,but Marcum could be a fixture for years.That was brought up on Wilner last night and I was like,unh?That is insane!I wanted Barroid,so giving up Marcum is not rational no matter what the cost.
Ari..... You are correct the Jays do have average hitting like most teams in the league do. Average hitting though would put them in the hunt for a playoff spot for there pitching.
There bats will not be this bad all season, its impossible.
I know the season is still early but the more losses they pile up now the more games over .500 they will have to go in the second half to compete for a playoff spot.
I will give them to the All Star Break to see where they are. If they are still struggling it will be time to get rid of stewart, wilkerson and Mench and start playing the young guys. Maybe even bring up Thigpen to catch. Try to develop the youngsters so you can compete next year.
No point having AAA if you won't advance them to the majors.
If I had to trad a pitcher I would be McCowan over Marcum. Teams love hard throwers and pay a premium for them so you could get more of a package for him.
It is insane though to think of trading either one of them as you can control there rights for the next 5 years. The jays are set up to have the best pitching staff in the majors for years to come.
Also, hitting is easy to acquire, most teams have plenty of hitters but not enough pitching so the free agent market is probably the way to go.
If Burnett is gone next year, bring up Purcey as your number 5 and see how it goes. You would of saved million of dollars on Burnett and use the money for hitters.
Also, I am so sick of people calling in to the Fan590 complaining about what a bust Burnett is and how it was such a stupid contract. We got a pitcher who throws 98 mph for 11 million a year. I guess we could of just kept Ted Lilly instead of signing Burnett.
I just found a new game: 1 beer for every scoreless Jays game (opponents don't score as well - I don't want to ruin my liver in two weeks!)
Hey Guys, Ricciardi says he's done tinkering with the offense. He thinks they'll turn it around (and charge to a .500 season).
"I think we're done. This is our team," Ricciardi said. "These are the guys we've made our bed with and I don't really see us being able to do a lot at this point. We've tried to do some little things in getting Mench and Wilkerson in here to try to shake up the lineup a little bit."
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080512&content_id=2686878&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor&partnered=rss_tor
Trade Marcum? Trade Dave Stieb Jr? ummmmmmmm fuck no.
McGowan would be good bait... I was all for trading Accardo but I guess he's cooked for now. Labrum?
Over the next 5 years, with health, Marcum will be our most reliable starter next to Doc.
ari:
Overbay's OBP is about 10 points above his career number, while his slugging is about 90 below. I don't see how that's "making up for it". Also, check his career: he gets worse as the season goes on, not better when the weather gets warmer.
Wells does tend to be a slow starter, I'll give you that, but STILL he is below (not by a ton, but below nonetheless) his career numbers for this point in the season. The big problem there he, he has basically been the Jays' best hitter all season.
If you actually read my post, I'm pretty sure I implied that we shouldn't expect more from Stairs. I was merely pointing out that your statement about only 3 Jays hitting below their career averages is flat out wrong. It still is.
So let's review (sticking to guys that principally have played and will play every day when healthy):
Better than expected: Rolen
As expected: Zaun, Stairs
Below expectations: Rios, Hill, Overbay, Wells, Eckstein
Quibble with Wells if you must, but that list of underperforming players is both long and full of guys that the Jays expect to be key cogs in their lineup.
Also, the Jays don't have a dearth of pitching, they have a dearth of hitting. The word means "a lack of".
"I think we're done. This is our team ... These are the guys we've made our bed with and I don't really see us being able to do a lot at this point. We've tried to do some little things in getting Mench and Wilkerson in here to try to shake up the lineup a little bit."
Uh huh ... this is the kind of thinking that make folks wonder if natural selection is dropping acid.
I hope one day Barry Bonds beats the crap out of him and makes J.P. fan him in his Barcolounger on the pitcher's mound at the Rogers Centre in front of a full house.
Is human sacrifice still illegal? I'd like to make an offering to the Baals ... do they like Italian?
Best Regards
John
Eli, you're actually going to buy that? I'm pretty sure we have to take everything out of him with a grain of salt....
I don't think there's much he can do until closer to the deadline anyways. I don't think anyone else is looking to deal just yet.
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