Tuesday, August 26, 2008

Shocking News

Richard Griffin actually admitted in his column today that "there are legitimate reasons on both sides of the J.P. Ricciardi fence with regard to his continuing as general manager of the Jays."

This is sort of like Palestine admitting that there are legitimate reasons for Israel occupying land in the Middle East. Maybe this could be inspiring as a means of mediation between millions of disputes worldwide.

If Richard Griffin can find legitimate reasons to keep J.P. Ricciardi as general manager in Toronto, perhaps Russia could find it within themselves not to recognize Georgian rebel regions as independent states.

Anyway, The Griff goes on to offer his opinions on what is good about Ricciardi, before bringing out his regular song and dance on why Ricciardi is the Anti-Christ. Seeing as though we're usually stuck somewhere in the middle of this debate, let's take a look at Griff's regular song and dance and see if we can't fill out his card a little more.

He was hired as a "compete-on-a-budget" guy. Now that they're spending middle-of-the-pack money, around $100 million (all figures U.S.), he no longer is that man. There are plenty of experienced candidates who could be brought in to lead the team to the next level.

Yeah, it would be difficult to argue that the team's circumstances haven't changed since Ricciardi came aboard. I'm not sure if that is reason enough to fire him, because of a budget increase, but what he's done with the budget increase thus far could be called into question. Frank Thomas . . . questionable long-term deals . . . David Eckstein . . . Burnett/Ryan.

Ricciardi has alienated free-agent players and their agents, either coming or going, every year since early in his tenure, starting with Chris Carpenter, then Kelvim Escobar through Carlos Delgado to Adam Dunn. It will always have a negative spinoff effect with other agents and other free agents as the Jays try to build a winner.

Even if this is true . . . uh, so what? There are far larger factors at play when signing free agents. If the right deal is offered to a player, I highly doubt he's going to suddenly recall Ricciardi's laughable comments about Adam Dunn as a reason not to sign with the Blue Jays.

If the plan is to blow the whole thing up and start again you cannot ask the man who built the original structure to be in charge of demolition. The Jays two years down the road will start with about $100 million in guaranteed commitments to 10 players, which does not bode well for payroll flexibility.

It would be the worst call in the history of terrible calls to blow this team up. Even if you believe that the Jays are fucked at every position, they're still going to have to wait until 2010 to "blow it up." It would be far too difficult to rid this squad of so many of its players who are signed to multi-year deals. In order to rid themselves of those 10 players, the Jays would undoubtedly end up paying most of their salaries anyway.

Ricciardi has lost the goodwill and support of the Jays' fan base that once idolized him and had him pegged as the prototypical GM for the future of the game. Worse, he has made the basic mistake that all good field managers tell their players: "Never get too high when you win or too low when you lose."

Once again, so what? Sports fans, at least in Toronto, are a fickle bunch. Anyone listening to Jays Talk knows that when the Jays perform well, the calls are about playoff baseball, and when they lose, the calls are about eliminating management and trading all of the players away. You could do much worse than losing the goodwill of a Toronto sports fan.

And while he touched on it a little with his first point, Griffin didn't attack the most glaring of Ricciardi's errors: high end free agent signings. Yes, he's maintained his ability to pick up cheap talent. Look at the bullpen. But what about his major free agent deals?

The Frank Thomas signing was a failure. A.J. Burnett has shown glimpses of greatness, and while he remains one of my favourite pitchers, would you call his time in Toronto a success? Everyone claimed that B.J. Ryan was Tommy John surgery waiting to happen, and what do you know? We only had to wait one year for it to happen and despite his success, watching Ryan since coming back from surgery has been as nerve racking as watching a tight-rope walker.

I think the mantra here has been said for the last couple months in these parts. There are definite flaws to Ricciardi's regime, but those criticizing it, seem to attack the wrong areas. While those defending him, are blind to some major mishaps.

Reader Peg City put it best in the comments from earlier today: "Seriously, the defenders of J.P. are just as moronic as the detractors."

101 comments:

Anonymous said...

JP must thank his lucky stars every night that his detractors have to side with Griff and the callers on Wilner's show

The Ack said...

the problem I have with Peg City's comment is the context.

Just because I (or whoever else) defend the Rolen-Glaus trade doesn't automatically make a guy a Ricciardi stooge. We were talking about one transaction, not the entire Ricciardi era.

mike said...

Agree with Ack. There's a world of difference between pointing out to a moron why they are a moron for saying things like "the jays should have paid for Glaus to play in Chicago in order to get Crede" and agreeing with everything that Riccardi has done.

Anonymous said...

Hahaha. Ricciardi will be on his way out in no time. There's no way he comes back.

jrock said...

I'd say that the AJ Burnett signing was a success. AJ Burnett has been AJ Burnett since ariving in Toronto (often injured, dominant performances only when the curveball is working). At the time people claimed that we were giving Burnett 'Ace-type' money, so he better pitch like an ace, or else JP Ricciardi is an idiot. However, the way the market for starting pitchers has gone, Burnett the contract for Burnett turned out to be a decent deal.
As for BJ Ryan's deal, at the time we really needed a closer. Anyone who claims they could've predicted with certainty how good our bullpen has turned out to be is a liar. The BJ and AJ deals were both risky, but so are most baseball deals.

Ticked Off Yid said...

Parkes, you need to work on your fucking similes.

"This is sort of like Palestine admitting that there are legitimate reasons for Israel occupying land in the Middle East. Maybe this could be inspiring as a means of mediation between millions of disputes worldwide."

What the fuck is "Palestine?" And I hope when you said "occupied land", you didn't mean land that was conquered more than once in wars initiated each time by Israel's enemies. It's fucking insanity, the fact that Israel can be attacked by 5+ countries by surprise numerous times, pummel them into submission each time, and then get shredded on the world stage for "occupying" lands? Fuck you Parkes, when it comes to Middle Eastern politics you're the casual, Richard Griffin-reading baseball fan.

Geo Political Expert said...

I'd say that's a fairly neutral way of looking at things.

melted said...

oc·cu·py Pronunciation (ky-p)
tr.v. oc·cu·pied, oc·cu·py·ing, oc·cu·pies

*** 2. To dwell or reside in. ***

ticked off yid said...

Referring to any country or group of people as "Palestine" is not a fairly neutral way of looking at things.

melted said...

HOW DARE YOU USE WORDS, PARKES

Anonymous said...

^^

good thing, we're just in the process of figuring out the details of how we're going to give back "North America" to the Indians

Anonymous said...

waaaa waaaa waaaa poor israel

when will you middle easterners realize you're all the same to us, we don't give a rat's ass about your problems, and get your shit together?

Beau said...

I'm all for a more wholesome resulution to land conflict. Quit looking at things as people vs. people and instead focus on person to person. Why the fuck is there the need for Israeli's to classify themselves as Israel and Palestinians to look at themselves as Palestine?

The idea of separate states is what is ultimately driving this conflict isn't it? What ever happened to sharing and looking individually at your neighbour's?

Fuck, I really had myself going there.

What do you all think? Halladay CG tonight?

crash said...

• passing up troy tulowitzki
• signing frank thomas
• lying
• scott richmond

pick four. pick four more.
all ricciardi has done is create an illusion that the jays are competitive

Anonymous said...

Did they announce who's been called up to fill Mench's roster spot?

crash said...

then again, ricciardi is just a bad frontman for the real master illisionist: paul godfrey

Alex said...

I would think rolen coming back fills mench's spot, no?

hey, to anyone complaining about scott richmond, how much olympic baseball did you even watch? I'm betting little to none.

Anonymous said...

Scott Richmond as one of Ricciardi's major blunders?
Seriously?

Tao of Stieb said...

Yeah, Troy Tulowitzki is really making JP look like an idiot this year, isn't he.

Fucking get over it already.

Stedron said...

The U.S would have annexed Canada by now if you guys didn't have the high ground...

plaing said...

you know, if the jays go 25-0 from here on out, we'll break the 90-win plateau, and i think we have a shot at the wild card.

Beau said...

Good call. It all begins tonight!

Anonymous said...

That Palestine-Israel analogy makes no sense whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

Umm...yeah Parkes...the AJ Burnett signing was actually a success.

And Frank Thomas did have one good year with the team, I'm not sure why he wasn't allowed to even try for a 2nd one.

Anonymous said...

"Parkes, you need to work on your fucking similes."

And you need to work on actually saying something when you type.

Happy Yid said...

Remember that time when JP traded Hillebrand to Palestine for Accardo. Man, the Israelis were pissed!

SP said...

Parkes, dude you are clearly waddling in X-ray hindsight just like the rest of the "moronic detractors".

Burnett: When he was signed, the rotation was Doc, Chacin, and Lilly who was in his final year. After that, no one knew anything about Marcum, Janssen, Litsch, or McGowan. And 11 million/year for him looks like a bargain now doesn't it? 36 wins so far and 11 games over .500 after 3 years for a ".500 pitcher". I'll take that any day.

Ryan: When he was signed, the bullpen had Speier in his final year, a not-yet-dominant Downs, Frasor, Tallet, and shitty guys like Walker and Schoeneweis. League and Accardo didn't come aboard until halfway through the season. You don't think signing one of the best closers in the game was worth it? Keep in mind, it still hasn't even been 18 months since the surgery, yet he's been pitching since April. And don't give me that crap about he was TJ surgery waiting to happen. You can say that about 90% of pitchers.

Eckstein: Eckactly as advertised. This doesn't even deserve a paragraph actually, but there was no SS depth at all and really no one else on the market except little leaguers like Neifi Perez, Vizquel, Woodward, Royce Clayton, and J-Mac who he already re-signed. So JP got the best little leaguer of the bunch.

Glaus for Hudson: He used an excess asset in Hudson to fill two huge needs: power bat and an every day 3B. This was and always will be a good trade. Fuck off.

Rolen: We've been over this. JP nailed it. Fuck off.

Questionable long-term deals: Other than Vernon, who? Extending the best pitcher in baseball for 3/40? Rios at a very reasonable rate? Hill at an extreme bargain? Some people even blame the Wells signing on Godfrey and I would tend to agree because that signing doesn't smell like JP's work at all.

Thomas: I will agree with this one for the most part. The vesting option was dumb at the time of the signing and they had to eat about 8.5 million this year to get rid of him. However, it was definitely not disastrous by any means. He was the 2nd best, if not the best hitter on the team in 2007. He had the 2nd highest OPS and was his usual high OBP self.

Carpenter: Oh please! Everyone in the world thought he was done and the Cards just took a chance on him. There was no reason to believe he would become anything close to a Cy Young winner despite his obvious potential.

Delgado: He wanted 18 million per and a long-term deal. And this was in the low-budget days. No way you can blame JP for that.

Escobar: If the Jays could only offer Carlos an embarrassing 6 million per year, then they definitely weren't going to offer Escobar the 6 million he got from the Angels. Again, blame Rogers.

Dunn: He wasn't coming here anyway. JP probably knew that before the interview. And it would've taken at least two top prospects or current players to get it done. No way I do that for half a season of Dunn.

Drafting: First of all, it's pretty dumb to judge a GM's draft history while he's still the GM since they usually only surface after the next GM takes over. Most of the picks are still coming through. But can you really argue with the early results? The first 3 years yielded Marcum, Lind, Janssen, Hill, Litsch, and Purcey. That's not including some of the draft picks that were used to get quality relievers and utility players currently on the big club.

Romero: Like I said above, it's still way too early to make any judgments about this pick. He has looked brilliant just recently, but still inconsistent. And whining about Tulowitzski is so cliche. If you're going to choose alternative picks in hindsight, at least pick better players like Bruce or Garza.

Lying: This is the dumbest one. Frankly, I'm glad he lies. If a GM is not lying, he's not doing his job.

Scott Richmond: Fuck off.


It's pretty astonishing that Parkes would agree with Peg City's comment. Equating the two is an insult considering that the detractors rely on shitty logic for their arguments, love using 20/20 hindsight, and clearly let their hate for the person muddle their opinion of him as a GM. Meanwhile, the "moronic defenders" back up their arguments with sound reason and logic, judge the moves at the time they happened instead of at a convenient time later on, and consider the big picture of the Jays as a mid-budget team in the AL East.

I would LOVE to hate JP. He comes off as a total douche as a person, but I will not let that cloud my judgment of him as a GM. If he gives me a reason to become a detractor, I will gladly shit on him. Trust me, I have spare time. But now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, you might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

Anonymous said...

The two I hate the most, the resident retard SP (he's one of those defenders), and stupid Parkes (he's just an idiot0, face off!

Beau said...

Let's get on to a real debate. Coconut Cream Pie or Apple Pie.

I'm all for Coconut cream. I'll take a whipped cream topping over a crust topping any day. Some pie's are too crusty and the dry taste is a real displeasure to my taste buds. In addition, the cool crisp flavour of the coconut cream filling is a much nicer contrast to the dinner I just ate than is the gooey sugar coated apple.

Don't get me wrong, apple pie with a scoop of ice cream is a tasty treat; though coconut cream is the greatest!

Don't get me started on pumpkin though. It's a love it or hate it flavour and I don't want to rouse that much debate.

melted said...

fire gibbons!

The Ack said...

banana cream pie > coconut cream pie. fuck beau, this'll get ya - my momma used to make it with a graham crumb crust instead of shitty flaky pastry. Yesssss.

oh, and.....pretty much what sp said, although I would put the Thomas signing as a bad idea from the get-go (decent production in year 1 yes, but (a) only comparatively to the rest of the lineup, and (b) at that price?), Eckstein was a bad decision (just always felt like a "Hey! Look at us! We're signing someone!" move), and despite the protests of DJFers everywhere, was always against the whole Shannon > Reed thing for reasons I've beaten the piss out of on numerous occasions, none of which involve gritty scrapy hustle-do (so fuck off).

You beat me to the punch on BJ though, I've been meaning to post about him for a while now.

Beau said...

Yea, i've had the graham cracker crust. It is fantastic.

Hey I tell you what, have your mom send me a pie. I need to taste this banana cream pie you speak of.

Stoeten said...

Parkes, you can't even get people to hate you right!

SP said...

Key lime pie > Your mom's literal and figurative pie.

Ack, who would be your starting SS this year then? I am definitely not saying Eckstein was a great move or even a good move, but it was in no way significant enough to be a bad one considering the alternatives and that it's only for 1 yr at 4.5 mil.

j.d. said...

Apple pie is best with (old) cheddar cheese on top.

BJ and AJ signings were good at the time and they still are now.

Frank Thomas and David Eckstein signings seemed like bad ideas at the time (all things considered) and remain so.

I believe his hands were tied with respect to Vernon Wells' contract and the Glaus for Rolen trade.

That means it's a tie and everybody's right. Except beau who advocates the very pedestrian apple pie/ice cream combination. Peace.

Anonymous said...

pumpkin pie > *pie

The Ack said...

I was waiting for the yo' momma! to come into play, you disrespectful bastard.

You know, I've never really had a good piece of Key Lime pie, so I'll abstain from commenting.

Anyway....my starting SS to start the year would have been the same as it is right now, I guess....which is a rotation that doesn't include Exxx. It's not like Johnny Mac and Scutaro are really exceeding expectations, are they? Nor is Eckstein playing below expectations, really. My point being, it's not hindsight at play there.

peg city said...

I'm famous. And a lot of you are still actually morons. High-functioning morons, probably, but droolers nonetheless.

The main moronic point is basically served up by sp on Rolen -- it was in no way a slam dunk. A player with a debilitating shoulder injury that has robbed him of his power is good guy to risk a one or two year smallish deal with incentives on, but certainly not a three-year, $36 million hit.

Is it a terrible deal? No. High risk, potentially high reward. But drawing the line in the sand ion the J.P. debate with this one is crazy.

Go over the entire body of work, and yes -- you can rationalize 75% of the transactions J.P. made. That's not how management is judged, though. Would firing J.P. leave the team better or worse off? I'd say, right now, that's a 50/50 proposition... which doesn't bode well for anyone whose job is to dish out 100 million in cake.

Anonymous said...

Yid, Palestine was represented at the Olympics. Calm down you racist Zionist! Now to the real controversy.

Ed Wade in Philly had 8 years to build a winner and they never made the playoffs although they sniffed them and brought in Gillick and Philly was part of the greatest comeback in baseball history. JP has had 8 years to build this team and this year, they are probably a 4th place team at best. In essence, the team is no better off than they were during the Ash regime. Wilner was spinning it that way BUT when the lowly Rays become a powerhouse and the Jays are 12 games behind the Rays the party is over for JP.

Gillick should be brought back. Yeah, Iknow it sounds like a nostaglia tour BUT Gillick finally got the Phils to the promised land and hopefully he can do so for the Jays as well. I don't need a GM to say that free agents didn't want to come to Toronto. I live in NYC and Toronto is a civilized beautiful city where parts of NYC still look like "Escape from New York". BTW, when Ryan and Burnett saw the dollar signs they didn't go to the Cubbies or the Cards.

That war between Georgia and Russia? Blame JP!

j.d. said...

peg city,
We're talking about pie, not cake. Pay attention.

SP said...

I forgot about pecan pie, it can be quite good.

Going into the season with only Scutaro and his limited experience at SS as the backup would've looked far worse I think. Sure, Mac and Scutaro have been exactly as advertised also, but Eckstein brought the ability to lead off which they didn't. I didn't like Eck leading off at all, but the other options were Stewart, Scutaro, Wilkerson and Rios. If it weren't for Inglett breaking out, we'd be forced to use Rios at the top for the whole season.

Brandon Heikoop said...

I have an issue claiming the Frank Thomas signing was a mistake. Last year he provided 9 WSAB, which on the open market is worth about $14M. This season has not been as hot, although injuries and being jerked around presumably have a lot to do with that.

In all, Thomas has been worth slightly under what the Jays paid him to be worth. That is not a mistake, nor a bad signing.

Shannon Stewart was a bad signing.

ju1ced said...

I like JP.
Though he has made some mistakes, his successes outweigh his mistakes.

1) Troy Tulowitzki, anyone that brings up that is an idiot.

Look at his signings, draft picks, trades, and compare them against other GMs, you won't find many that have done a better job.

In the last 5 years the only team to put more talent on the field from draft picks, other than the Jays are the Oakland A's.

We'll have a new GM, who'll do even worse, and the idiots who bitch for the sake of bitching will be bitching even more.

To those that hate JP so much, who would you say are the top 5 GMs in baseball?

Anonymous said...

Mets
Phillies
Braves
Marlins
Nationals

Rays
Red Sox
Yankees
Orioles

Which would you rather GM in over 7/8/9 years?

SP said...

Peg city, what would you have done, Paid CWS to take Glaus for Crede? Traded prospects for a 3B? Signed one of the shitty FA 3Bs who were even worse than Rolen this year? Relied on Scutaro to play every day at 3B?

As a rule, if you're gonna shit on a move, you gotta offer BETTER alternatives.

Joshua Henry said...

Why is everyone one so confused about the AJ and BJ signings. It seems to me that everyone has it all backwards.

A.J Burnett in Toronto has not been a success. He has been to oft-injured to justify his contract. People are also confused by his win total this season... he hasn't been good in every other catagory, even by his own standards. His ERA, WHIP, and OBA are much higher in contrast to his career norms.

BJ on the other hand has been solid. You take out his injury year and look at his stats he has been an elite closer while healthy... yes even this season.

Go look at the stats. I dare yah.

j.d. said...

brandon,

I can sort of see your point but I think paying Thomas 8.5 million (or whatever it cost to buy him out) for three home runs (this year) makes it a bad signing. You can claim I'm using hindsight, I guess, but offering aging, declining sluggers three year high dollar contracts seems like a bad idea to me. No hindsight required. To prove it I'll go on record right now as saying the recent talk of (re-)signing Delgado next year seems like a bad idea to me unless he's willing to accept low dollars and/or 1 year term only.

ju1ced up,

My top 5 would be:
Cliff Fletcher
Chewbacca
Richard Griffin
Stoeten
The guy GMs the Rays

Anonymous said...

JP might be a lackluster, break even GM who can't seem to sign the big name power hitters that the Blue Jays need. But I give him kudos for he showing some creative sparks of brilliance

think Scott Richmond

The move itself doesn't really affect the team (Richmond / Parrish, not a significant difference). And by calling Richmond up at the time he did, it stirs up some interest in the apathetic sports minded public.

In a town where the public worships a bad joke of a hockey team while ignoring the mediocre baseball team, what better way to turn some heads in the direction of the stadium than to show the country that the Blue Jays are more important than the Olympics ?

if he showed the same degree of skill in pulling off stunts like this as he did in making player acquisitions, we'd all be drunk drinking world series champagne and spraying it out our noses at yankees and red sox fans while we're laughing our asses off at them


So why don't you just smarten up JP and pick up some good players before I have to kick your smugly assface back to .....


Bwaaaahstyn !

Joe said...

I love the smell of a flame war in the afternoon.

Christopher said...

SP, I also heard that J.P shits gold bricks and pisses Coca Cola.

Stoeten said...

Jordan Bwaaahstyn?

Dustin Parkes said...

Ack: Fair enough. I'm using the statement not specific to any one argument. I'm not saying that every Ricciardi supporter is a moron just like I'm not suggesting that every detractor is a moron. There are good arguments for both sides, it just seemed that Griffin missed the boat on his representation of both sides.

Dustin Parkes said...

Super Jew: Are you serious? Please for the sake of my faith in humanity tell me you're joking. Who doesn't refer to Palestine as being Palestine? You can't pretend that there is a distinct group of people there. Exactly who governs the Gaza Strip?

Anonymous said...

Stoeten, you're buddy says that this upcoming series is make-or-break for the Jays in their quest for a post-season berth

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080824&content_id=3359887&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor


is Marcum pregnant, is that why they sent him down to the minors ?

Dustin Parkes said...

A bunch of people: Okay, there's certainly room for argument on the success/failure of the BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett signings. I'm fine with those opinions, and I'm not even sure myself what I think. I see both sides, but seriously, arguing that the Thomas signing was a success is outrageous.

He had a fairly good season in his first year, there's no question, but the money that would've been guaranteed to him for a similar second year was far and away shitty.

Ricciardi did the right thing by pulling the plug, but not signing him at all would've been better.

On Eckstein: I agree he's exactly as advertised, but my point is that he's done so very little for the team as he is that he was therefore a bad signing. It almost would've made Ricciardi look better if he shit the bed, but because he's doing what he was brought here to do and still making no impact, and seems to be somewhat extraneous, I have to think of it as a failure.

It's certainly not Eck's fault in the least . . . just the way it's come to be.

Dustin Parkes said...

Paul Godfrey is not the master of anything other than the ability to schmooze with top people.

Dustin Parkes said...

SP: You say I'm using hindsight, but your first point is that Burnett's contract looks great right now. We get into it on the podcast a bit, but this contract was the first ever to allow an opt out for a pitcher.

I maintain that an argument can be made that Burnett's contract was not a success.

As for Ryan, he has the herkiest jerkiest throwing technique this side of a Parkinson's rock skipper. The injury was inevitable, and there is so much money tied up in a pitcher that throws for one inning. Once again, I can see the other side of it, but it still remains a question for me whether or not you can consider it a success.

I've already written about Eckstein.

As for questionable multi-year deals, we've got Wells, Rios and Hill as the ones I question. I admit that the Rios deal looked a lot better at the beginning of the year than it does near the end, but I'm not a huge fan of the Hill contract at any point of the season. If I wanted to nitpick, I'd also point to Scott Downs being inked when he would've allowed the Jays to collect some great draft picks. I do really like Downs though.

The other stuff, I think works fine. Ricciardi's wheeling and dealing has been fairly good to excellent, and I like his draft picks more than most.

Dustin Parkes said...

Oh, and Overbay too. Hill and Overbay are the slightly above average types that I would think a lot longer and harder about signing for multiple season than I'm guessing that Ricciardi did.

crash said...

signing frank thomas is a microcosm of the ricciardi era
a one-trick pony that killed any chance of lineup flexibility, a lineup with a lot of guys (like glaus) that could've used the DH spot.
like ack suggested, this was a signing just so the jays could say, 'look, we've signed someone! we're going to be competitive!'
again, it's all about the illusion

Stoeten said...

On the Beej as an injury waiting to happen thing... yeah, I kinda rolled over on the subject during the podcast, but I should have argued that it's kind of hard to even believe in that kind of thing. Think of Mark Prior's arm falling apart despite his "perfect" mechanics, or K-Rod's staying intact, despite the same concerns as with the Beej? Lincecum is another one to watch. Frankly, it seems like the number of pitchers who blow out an arm at some point in their careers is way higher than the ones who don't. Of course, I'm just making that up.

peg city said...

SP, I can't make realistic alternatives because I'm not a GM of a baseball team. Therefore, as a rule, it's a pretty poor one.

My plan of action would to be see what's out there, and, if possible, grab a prospect or two. Maybe I'd make a play for Crede, but it would depend what the sticker said.

If I couldn't have found a suitable replacement for Glaus's power, I'd DEFINTELY try to get power elsewhere. Everybody and their dog could see that without Glaus, the Jays infield was good for maybe 30 homers between all four positions. DH, probably, and use the Glaus and Xstein money there.

The only thing I wouldn't do is exactly what J.P. did - invest long term on a risky play. The move may turn out to be gold yet, but I'm doubting it.

Is it perfect? No. But I like it better than what we've been dealt.

The Ack said...

yeah, but Hill's contract is tradeable if need be, assuuummmming he comes back 100% next season, so I fail to see the problem with locking him up. He's a good, still young player, under team control. Seems the only risk with him is the effects of the concussion....

Downs, I mean, I have a hard time buying your logic on that particular one, Parksie.....he's arguably one of the best in the league at the job he's doing, and he's not breaking the bank.

Rios, I'm not prepared at all to call that contract a mistake so early into the deal - come on. He can potentially be (still) an upper echelon player - the thing with him isn't talent so much as attitude. And tack on 5 or 6 HR to his stats and NOBODY would be talking. I'd argue that his total extra base hits will at least meet expectations - he's mashing doubles.

Vernon....yeah....looking like a bad deal right now...but, right or wrong, that was a statement contract (we can keep guys here, damnit! so fuck you, Keith Law!) and hey - could have been Andruw Jones....

Anonymous said...

parkes has stupid arguments, sp is winning.

peg city said...

Doesn't the fact the Xstein is delivering exactly as promised make it a terrible signing? He can't be inserted regularly into the lineup despite getting on base at a good clip. To me, that's an epic fail.

Anonymous said...

We get into it on the podcast a bit, but this contract was the first ever to allow an opt out for a pitcher.

An opt out is a glorified player option. Has there seriously never been a player option for a pitcher?

Also, AJ has produced greater value - even with his injuries - than pitchers who were being signed for more money last offseason. It is actually probably the opt-out clause that coaxed Burnett into signing, since now that the market has gone haywire he can sign with some poor saps for $15MM per year.

With you on Ryan and Downs, though. At least Downs should still be a type-A when he comes up for FA two years from now.

Also your hate on Rios is fucking dumb. $11MM per year for a 110 OPS+, top-5 outfield defender is a fucking steal. Also Hill's deal turns into an amazing steal if they can move him back to short. 3-year team option? How the fuck did he pull that off?

I would think a lot longer and harder about signing for multiple season than I'm guessing that Ricciardi did.

What the fuck is this shit?

hth

best regards

johN

Anonymous said...

Oh and crash you are seriously fucking retarded.

best regards

johN

Stoeten said...

"Everybody and their dog could see that without Glaus, the Jays infield was good for maybe 30 homers between all four positions."

WHAT?!??!?

Anonymous said...

Anybody remember back in June when Parkes said unequivocally that Cito wouldn't be managing here and that he would give tickets to that person he was debating with if it turned out he was (and promptly on the next day he was named manager). I do.Stupid, stupid Parkes.

Anyway, Hill, Rios, Burnett and BJ were not bad contracts. Stop shitting on JP for them.

The Ack said...

BRB imposter makes an excellent point - the 3 team option years are fucking larceny.

And you know what - let's talk about the AJ opt-out. People pissed and moaned about handing him a 5 year-$55M deal (or whatever), complaining about the length of the deal.....effectively saying, at the time, they would have been smarter to only offer, let's say 3-$33....which is exactly what the deal will turn out to be.

Unless, of course, you want to hindsight the fucker and say "yeah, well he was hurt for two of those". And maybe you could have/should have seen that coming, but that's an entirely different argument.

Anonymous said...

"What the fuck is this shit?"

parkes being stupid, its normal. where is stoeten???????

Stoeten said...

I'm tired.

Anonymous said...

you suck then, too, unfortunately.

but obviously not as much as parkes.

and thats a compliment coming from me.

melted said...

>peg city said...
>
> My plan of action would to be see what's out there ...

...

jdhfkjhadsjhfsahfksa

CLEARLY THIS IS SOMETHING JP NEVER THOUGHT OF. SOMEONE FIND PEG CITY'S IDENTITY AND HIRE THIS MAN!!!

Lloyd the Barber said...

Re: Prior's perfect mechanics. A myth put forth by his lifelong pitching coach.

melted said...

yeah prior's mechanics were fucked

Anonymous said...

all pitchers get hurt except for the durable freaks like maddux and clemens.

Stoeten said...

Be that as it may about Prior, I think the idea still stands up that it's somewhat bullshit to shy away from a player because you don't like his mechanics. Of course, this is probably too general a way to talk about this-- i.e. it depends on what specifically is wrong with his mechanics. I mean, don't people say that Lincecum, as long as he continues to repeat the same motion, isn't as bad as it looks?

SP said...

Oh come on Parkes. Ack and anonymous 5:29 basically took the words out of my mouth but seriously, complaining about Downs? BJ's mechanics? You are seriously reaching there man.

Also, yes in my comment about AJ I noted his stats, but the first part of my point is what matters. JP got him at a time when we were going to lose Lilly at the end of the season, Chacin would've been the #2 or 3 starter, and other than McGowan there wasn't another SP in the system on the horizon. Marcum, Janssen, Litsch were quick risers that no one could've predicted. So not only was the signing very necessary but it also turned out to be fairly priced considering how the market for SPs has played out, and maybe JP predicted that.

As for my Thomas comment, it sounds like I liked the move, but to clarify, I definitely did not. It just didn't feel right from the very beginning to give him 3 years. That said, this contract doesn't even come close to being as disastrous as some in recent history. This was probably JP's worst move in his tenure along with the Wells signing if it indeed was his call all the way.

And why is everyone acting like Eckstein was signed to a huge 5 year contract? It was a 1 yr deal at 4.5 mil! He was brought in because they were understandably weary about having Mac/Scutaro split time for a whole season. And they also wanted to take leadoff duties off of Rios' shoulders. Again, it's a 1 year deal!

I refuse to entertain any thoughts about Hill's contract being a bad one. Not only is it a huge bargain for a fine hitter and a GG caliber fielder, but as Ack pointed out, it's also very tradeable.

Lloyd the Barber said...

True, Lincecum generates all his power with his overlong stride and shoulder/hip turn. It looks bad in some ways, but doesn't strain his elbow as much as other moves.

BJ Ryan is a bullstrong guy that has success in spite of his mechanics.

Pitching exerts such incredible force on the body, it is only a matter of time for guys with even slightly flawed mechanics.

peg city said...

Melted, that's some nice context. Thanks for bringing a lot to the table, idiot.

And Stoeten:

Thirty homers, yeah a little-low ball, but I'll break it down: 15 Hill, 15 Overbay, 0 MacDonald, 0 Eckstein, Give or take. I didn't add Rolen, but going on what he did last year, that pumps it up to 45 max.

That's not acceptable, especially given what they had for the DH spot.

Anonymous said...

all pitchers get hurt except for the durable freaks like maddux and clemens.

Yeah, but Ryan had the dreaded "upside-down W" which is the pitching mechanics version of tying your elbow to the toothed-end of a bandsaw.

parkes being stupid, its normal.
You reek of Spencer Kyte.

hth

best regards

johN

Anonymous said...

Shut up you stupid jew, that means you Ticked off yid.

Anonymous said...

hm yes

racism

funny

hth

best regards

johN

Dustin Parkes said...

Honestly, I'm not being antagonistic by suggesting that Ryan was a bad signing. First of all, spending that much on a reliever is a questionable move. Secondly, Ryan had pitched for one year in a closer's role before getting that contract. Thirdly, his delivery is very far from normal, and many people suggested ahead of time that he was a ticking time bomb. Saying that every pitcher gets a major injury isn't true.

As for the Cito thing. Yeah, I was wrong. I've never shied away from saying that or hidden the fact that I didn't think he'd be hired. I also don't think I was anywhere near the minority in thinking that way.

Also, Spencer come on, how are these stupid suggestions? You may disagree, but surely you can believe that there's an argument to be made.

SP, good point on Eckstein being for only one year. It just seems like such a redundant signing for any amount after attaining Scutaro and already having McDonald aboard.

Anonymous said...

SP, good point on Eckstein being for only one year. It just seems like such a redundant signing for any amount after attaining Scutaro and already having McDonald aboard.

Even if Eckstein has been "only" as advertised, there is also value in bringing him in to avoid relying totally on McDonald going into the season. Scutaro was expected to back up multiple positions, and did not project to be as good a second baseman as Eckstein coming in. BP actually projected him to be better than McDonald, too. I think it's a respectable signing, but certainly not something to base a significant judgement of a GM on in either direction.

Also iirc he is set to be a type B this year but there may be some technicality about that with 1-year contracts.

Also the term you are looking for with Ryan is the "upside-down W", referring to how he holds his arms during his delivery.

hth

best regards

johN

Dustin Parkes said...

Yeah, but the Eckstein signing is one more questionable free agent acquisition.

I'll stand by what I said earlier, Eckstein hasn't underperformed and yet he's riding the pine as the highest paid middle infielder on the team. To me, that's a bad signing when none of the other middle infielders are playing above their heads either.

Anonymous said...

The benefit of the opt-out clause is getting those draft picks early. Even if the Jays sign a type A free agent, they gain a supplemental pick.
-brent in Korea

Stoeten said...

Peg: Oh. Thought 3B/Rolen was one of the four infield spots you were referring to.

Everyone: Everything is fine. We won the World Series this year. It was really fun. What are you complaining about?

MK Piatkowski said...

This is sort of like Palestine admitting that there are legitimate reasons for Israel occupying land in the Middle East.
This had me LMAO for a good five minutes. Then I read the article. After making points, Griffin just goes on to say "dump him" without really evaluating why.

Personally, I think we should keep him. There was the odd questionable signing but we now have the best pitching staff in baseball, gems in Scuturo and Inglett, Wells and Rios are starting to hit to potential, and we have the best defense in the league.

I don't see how this isn't a win. I have faith in the team I'm watching right now, and in the man who put it together.

SP said...

Did no one get my Tommy Boy reference?

ticked off yid said...

"Yid, Palestine was represented at the Olympics. Calm down you racist Zionist! Now to the real controversy."

I'm a racist because Parkes takes ignorant stabs at Middle Eastern policy? "Palestine" had no business being represented in the Olympics because there is no such thing. The country does not exist. And the swimmers trained with the Israeli swim team in Israel, while a Jew would be scared shitless if he ventured into an Arab town (I don't know, it might have something to do with Israel's policy of not killing innocent women and children.)

"Super Jew: Are you serious? Please for the sake of my faith in humanity tell me you're joking. Who doesn't refer to Palestine as being Palestine? You can't pretend that there is a distinct group of people there. Exactly who governs the Gaza Strip?"

Who DOES refer to Palestine as being Palestine? Ignorant fucks like you, who have no idea that such a country doesn't exist? A "distinct group of people"? The Gaza Strip was run by Egypt (and the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan) until the 1967 War, when it took Israel all of 6 days to kick ass and expand its borders. Saying "Palestine admitting that there are legitimate reasons for Israel occupying land" is basically the equivalent of saying "Native America admitting that there are legitimate reasons for the USA occupying land. Just because 160,000 Arabs living in British-ruled "Palestine" in 1947 decided to pro-create like rabbits and turn themselves into 5m people in 2 generations doesn't give them any right to the region. What's often ignored in all this discussion is that Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and all other neighboring ARABIC countries denied these people entrance and citizenship to their countries.

PALESTINE DOES NOT EXIST.

ticked off yid said...

"Yid, Palestine was represented at the Olympics. Calm down you racist Zionist! Now to the real controversy."

I'm a racist because Parkes takes ignorant stabs at Middle Eastern policy? "Palestine" had no business being represented in the Olympics because there is no such thing. The country does not exist. And the swimmers trained with the Israeli swim team in Israel, while a Jew would be scared shitless if he ventured into an Arab town (I don't know, it might have something to do with Israel's policy of not killing innocent women and children.)

"Super Jew: Are you serious? Please for the sake of my faith in humanity tell me you're joking. Who doesn't refer to Palestine as being Palestine? You can't pretend that there is a distinct group of people there. Exactly who governs the Gaza Strip?"

Who DOES refer to Palestine as being Palestine? Ignorant fucks like you, who have no idea that such a country doesn't exist? A "distinct group of people"? The Gaza Strip was run by Egypt (and the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan) until the 1967 War, when it took Israel all of 6 days to kick ass and expand its borders. Saying "Palestine admitting that there are legitimate reasons for Israel occupying land" is basically the equivalent of saying "Native America admitting that there are legitimate reasons for the USA occupying land. Just because 160,000 Arabs living in British-ruled "Palestine" in 1947 decided to pro-create like rabbits and turn themselves into 5m people in 2 generations doesn't give them any right to the region. What's often ignored in all this discussion is that Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and all other neighboring ARABIC countries denied these people entrance and citizenship to their countries.

PALESTINE DOES NOT EXIST.

Anonymous said...

STFU you stupid jew.

Happy Yid said...

Hey there Ticked off Yid. How are you? I'm pretty good myself.

I just wanted to tell you that I'm Jewish and my wife is Palestinian. Our two kids are Jewish Palestinian. However, since I read your post, this has all changed.

According to you, my wife now doesn't exist. That means I'm single again. So I was wondering if I could get your mom's phone number? Do you think she'd be interested in a recently single guy with two half children?

Oh don't worry about it. I got her number already from the Yassir Arafat black book I bought on eBay. I guess she's a bird lover because he wrote "swallows" next to her name. I'll give her a buzz.

Oh and did you know that J.P. stands for "Jewish Palestinian"? Look it up.

All the best,

H.Y. Cohen

Joshua Henry said...

Me personally, I will never understand the David Eckstein benching situation.

He was brought in to post a .725OPS, which he has done.

He was brought in to show some hussle, which he has done.

He was brought in to post a .350OBP, which he has done.

He was brought in to show some doubles power, which he has done.

He was brought into provide some expereince, which of course he has done.

He was not brought in to play great defence, which came as advertised.

Basically he has done everything he was supposed to do, but Cito has decided go with Mac and his monterous .590 OPS instead.

I don't buy the defence issue, because the Jays play great D with or without Mac in the lineup.

The whole situation to me is quite bizarre.

Stedron said...

Wow.

Stedron said...

I thought the Gaza Strip was the mid-way point in pubic hair evolution between completely shaved and out-of-contol bush. I need to watch more CNN.

Beau said...

Where are we at on this pie argument?

I don't like Key Lime all that much, that's for sure. I'll venture the following

Coconut Cream>pumpkin>other cream pies>cherry>apple>>pecan>>>mincemeat

Also, THANKS BE TO JESUS! I FINALLY HAVE MY HDFTA HOOKED UP AGAIN!! I LOVE HD CHANNELS

SP said...

beau, I think you're alone in the cream pie love. The consistency of the cream and custard feels just a bit too much like a certain bodily fluid swishing around in my mouth. I prefer something with a bit more variety in texture and a little more substance. I'm gonna completely flip flop on my key lime pie love and go with

apple>berry pies>pecan>pumpkin>key lime>>>any pie with the consistency of semen

Stedron said...

Dutch Apple > Dutch Oven

ticked off yid said...

"According to you, my wife now doesn't exist."

Palestinians are simply the group of people who were displaced from their homes and were granted refugee status once the State of Israel was created. Palestine does not exist anymore, but the refugees known as Palestinians by the world do. In fact, the term Palestinians originally referred to Arabs and Jews alike, any non Brits living in Palestine.

"Our two kids are Jewish Palestinian."

No, they aren't. Any decent yid would know that if he marries a shiksa his kids are a bunch of shkootzim.

You can definitely fuck my mother though, I have no problem with that. Just want to warn you that she's 73, but I guess with her dentures out it makes for a mean beej.

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