A Few Ill-Thought-Out Words On What Else?
As Parkes has already mentioned, there was an interesting piece of Twittering yesterday from Sports Illustrated’s Jon Heyman:
Turns out it’s bullshit—which isn’t to say anything of Heyman’s “reporting”, if that’s what we’re calling Twitter posts these days. After all, we have no idea how, precisely, it’s “bogus”, or whether there is a kernel of truth in it somewhere. Not being Mark Knudson, I don’t necessarily know how things work, but I’d imagine that a lot of names get floated around when these kinds of trades are being discussed, both internally and with the other team, or, if TV has taught me anything, I imagine there are various stages of gamesmanship going on throughout any negotiation.
Meaning, I kind of think—and maybe I’ll be completely wrong—that if Halladay is moved there is going to be a chain of events here, where a rumour grows into reality through a series of Tweets and posts on Scientology’s MLB Trade Rumors. For that reason—plus the fact that I think Halladay really probably isn’t going to be traded anyway—I just don’t know how ape goof I’m going to go for every single idea that comes out of somebody’s keyboard.
Now, on the surface—on the surface—it may seem that the opinion I hold 0n this makes it really convenient to be as lazy as possible in following this story. Well… yeah, OK, that’s true. Clearly I’ve turned into Richard Griffin…
(Ugh… sorry for a tangent here, but is it just me or is Doug Farraway not the Fan 590’s fucking Glenn Beck?)
Anyway… I don’t remember what my fucking point was, but I guess it’s mostly that I haven’t bought into how real they keep telling us this thing is—Heyman’s now Tweeting that a Halladay acquaintance says “he’s emotionally gone”, which apparently is supposed to mean something.
I guess I tend to agree with what Parkes—and others—have been saying: that because Halladay's value, with two years left, is so high, and teams value their prospects so much, nobody is going to up a package enough above what you’d be damned sure to expect to get next year, or in the off-season, to make it worth doing now.
It’s not like moving him is such an easy decision for the Jays-- even though a lot of folks seem to assume they have to. If they do move him, it means they give up two eventual first round picks, they give up on the chance to convince him to stay in the off-season, they give up the ability to retool and take one more crack with him next year, and then still get major value—though not as much—in return if it doesn’t work out, and, almost certainly, they’ll see their TV and attendance numbers go deeper into the tank.
Maybe those are only real concerns over here in fantasy land, but I don't know... shouldn’t it be enough to make a team like the Phillies wonder if the Jays really are going to blink and give in to a package that somehow doesn’t include their best prospects?
Incidentally, Heyman also reported yesterday that the Jays wouldn’t deal Halladay for Phillies prospects Michael Taylor, Carlos Carrasco and Jason Donald—that they would have to part with Kyle Drabek as well. Are the Phillies really going to pass on so dramatically increasing their chances for a three-peat just because they want to keep fucking Drabek? If that’s really true, and the Jays would do that deal, Phillies fans should be storming Ruben Amaro’s office with pitchforks—their future is now.
But anyway, yes, the Jays risk getting burned like the Twins on Santana if they wait too long. I just don’t think you can be afraid of that—CC Sabathia, with three months left on his contract, still hauled back Matt LaPorta, who I understand is only one guy, but is at least an elite guy. And I don’t think you can so completely discount—the way that all the ass-talkers who are so sure a deal is going to take place—the Jays ability to quickly retool…
Maybe I’m way too deep into thinking like a fan here, or maybe I’m just not thinking straight, and maybe they’ve even wanted to go this route, and have found no takers—though I find that hard to believe, if they're really willing to take back nothing but salary relief—but what if you move Rolen, Rios and Overbay for whatever possible, eating as little money as possible?
You have some cash freed up, plus the additional resources that Rogers continue to claim exist. Sign one free agent 1B and one DH/OF/3B to short-ish contracts—I’d like to pretend I’m thinking in the Pat Burrell contract mould here, but that’s probably not quite realistic— either re-sign Scutaro or otherwise procure a shortstop, then trade some depth pitching to fill the other gap. Or fuck, maybe you think you’ve got it covered with someone already in the organization, like Ruiz, Dopirak or Phillips. (Er… maybe not…)
Some of the upcoming free agents, according to Cot’s, that could fit those needs are Russ Branyan, Carlos Delgado, Aubrey Huff, Nick Johnson, Jim Thome, Miguel Tejada, Hank Blalock, Troy Glaus, Bobby Abreu, Jason Bay (yeah, keep dreaming on that one), and Mike Cameron.
I love Rolen, and am not nearly as down on Rios and Overbay as a lot of people, but those guys have got to have some trade value (not so much Overbay, but just go with me on this), and moving them gives you a chance to revamp the middle of the order—which might just be the ticket, even if it means giving up two stellar defensive players. Can it really be that hard to come up with a middle of the order that isn’t so goddamn toothless?
Granted, Rogers would have to part with some precious money in this scenario, but Rolen, Rios and Overbay are owed almost $28M combined next year—even if they’re eating a more than they’d like to, how much will it really take? They didn’t even have to eat half of Shitske’s salary to get Boston to take him, and he was fucking Shitske!
I dunno… again, I’m not Mark Knudson, I’m just saying… is the only road back to respectability the one where you have to trade Roy Halladay? I’m just really not sure why it is.
And speaking along these lines, I have a hunch Bob McCown is going to confront Pat Gillick with just such a scenario this evening—and the possibility of him being the man to do it—when the Jays’ ex-GM, representing the Phillies, joins him on Prime Time Sports.


45 rational and reasonable comments:
I dont care about this shit anymore. reality vs fantasy etc, etc.
what i do care about his this...kevin millar stats since early may
BA OBP slg OPS
May 2, 2009 to Jul 19, 2009 .190 .277 .302 .578
mind you that this is over 141 plate appearances. not some small sample size folks. you want to improve this team quickly, cheaply, and easily...just stop this guy from getting ANOTHER PLATE APPEARANCE THE REST OF HIS JAYS CAREER.
IN FACT ITS HISTORICALLY BAD FOR A BLUE JAY OVER THAT TIME FRAME IM QUITE SURE. OH....HES A DH..LMFAO...DH???/!!!!!
i willing to bet joe inglett could do better than this HITTING ONLY AGAINST LEFTIES!!!!!! and he can play multiple positions.
im sure buck coats could best this..and he offers good defense and great speed.
im sure randy ruiz could out do this while eating a chalupa and spray farting
but millar is great in the clubhouse. he makes rolen laugh.
and all those playes are much cheaper than this faggot.
and we are worried about trading doc. get over it foks. as long as easy, no brainer moves like NOT signing wilkerson, mench, dellucci, and millar are fucked up by management..why would you trust them to make expensive, regime changing moves?
It's true. They might be a little distracted at the moment. Aaaand, they don't really give a shit about what's happening on the field at the moment either.
I dunno... yes, it's complete bullshit, but do you really care that much? Is this what's keeping the Jays from getting back into the race?
Feces> Millar
Hitler>Millar
Obamas 2 trillion dollar deficit > Millar
Boning Phyllis Dillar's corpse > millar
drinking the infected sperm of Magic Johson > Millar.
Stoeten cockblocks Parkes yet again, LOL.
Question posed: is millar getting a large amount of playing time keeping the jays from contending
answer: we dont know. its really difficult to say. but i would surmise it very well COULD have cost them several games. add to that dellucci and whatever other fuck nut they had out in left besides early season snider.
we are not talking about a team that is that far away
they have lost 5 extra inning games in a row...they have lost an inordinate number of one run games in the last 1.5 months.
could having a slightly below AVERAGE vs terrible major leaguer manning dh LF make a difference.....it very well could ...it very well could. this team is really not that far away if a little tweaking was done.
as long as easy, no brainer moves like NOT signing wilkerson, mench, dellucci, and millar are fucked up by management..why would you trust them to make expensive, regime changing moves?
Dude, those are all perfectly sensible, low risk, high reward moves.
The problem is continuing to run those shitbags out there over and over after it's become clear that they're useless, not signing them in the first place.
low risk? low risk meaning financially they didnt cost money....i GUESS ill give you that.
high reward? LMFAO. there was no upside to any of these guys who were DONE.
financially they may have been cheap..but they have cost alot in nonfinancial terms..such as games, opportunity costs in developing younger, CHEAPER, and higher ceiling talent.
you have better players who are younger, cheaper, and have higher potential...and who have pretty much done all they can do in the minors. i cannot think of a single cogent argument that can be made, at this point, to not bring them up and dump millar, dellucci.
bautista is a USEFUL player. he can play multiple positions and he can hit a little, and draws walks..he is useful if hidden well. he is expensive relaively speaking..but useful.
the other shit bags....can em.
I think McCown's going to pose that to Gillick too.
McCown has said a couple of times that he thinks the Jays should go for it over the next few years. Sign Roy to a massive 3 year extension, with an opt out after the first year. Convince Beeston to hang on another 5 or 6 years, and bring in Gillick for a few years to replace JP.
I'm not sure it's remotely feasible .. but it would be a lot more fun to look forward to than trading Roy.
It's kind of sad how close this team was this year and Rogers couldn't pony up a few mil for a 5th starter (maybe a 4th too with the injuries) and a decent bat. IF the starters had been healthy this team would have just needed 1 or 2 bats and would probably be neck and neck with the sox.
What the fuck kind of "reporting" is this?
"based on halladay's candid comments about wanting to win, a halladay acquaintance says this: "he's emotionally gone.''"
A Halladay (can't even bother to use a capital letter there Heyman?) acquaintance? A fucking acquaintance? That's not a source, that's a fuckwit he met in an elevator once.
He's also not even basing it on private conversations he's had, just based on what he's said publicly?
That's tantamount to saying "this homeless drunk guy (who oddly enough wasn't Richard Griffin.) heard what Halladay said and this is what he thought!"
Fuck this mindless speculation masquerading as news. Don't these fucks know the power of the written word? Even when tweeted?
Fuck them all
And fuck Kevin Millar, David Delucci and to a lesser extent Rod Barajas, Raul Chavez, John McDonald and Jose Bautista. 6-9 in our line-up has been a festering black hole for far too long, and replacing those guys with league-average players makes this team much better, 'cause at least they would have the potential to do SOMETHING.
Stoeten, I've seen you bring that up many times before but what exactly did you want them to do otherwise? The Mets are currently running out shitbaggers like Alex Cora, Fernando Tatis, Omir Santos, Jeremy Reed, Ramon Castro, and Angel Pagan, and they have way more resources to do something about it than the Jays. It's not that easy to find league-average hitters in the middle of the season as you'd like to think.
Jesse Barfield sounds so frustrated at the jays, baseball and everything in this interview.
http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090721_073547_7044
Stoeten, I've seen you bring that up many times before but what exactly did you want them to do otherwise? The Mets are currently running out shitbaggers like Alex Cora, Fernando Tatis, Omir Santos, Jeremy Reed, Ramon Castro, and Angel Pagan, and they have way more resources to do something about it than the Jays. It's not that easy to find league-average hitters in the middle of the season as you'd like to think.
Someone in the organization.
Saying the Jays should have spent money in the off-season on a bat is overly simplistic. Where were they going to put him? Unless it was someone like Ramirez, were they supposed to spend money on someone who might have only been a marginal upgrade over what was expected from Snider? Should they have overspent on a platoon partner for Overbay? Yeah, it's nice to say that the team is a big bat away from contending, but those 'big bats' were expected from guys like Rios or Wells, who haven't delivered with any consistency.
True, but they would have been far better off waiting on Snider and going short-term with a DH.
Probably, but I don't think they expected such a good start to the season. And, really, if they had signed Pat Burrell and he put up the numbers he's put up in Tampa, things would be pretty ugly around here.
Someone like Abreu would have been a nice pick-up, though, in hindsight.
I still don't see a Halladay deal being likely this summer and I haven't since the beginning of this whole saga.
It's mostly because I don't see any team offering the package it will take to acquire him (an Erik Bedard type deal, but better). But it's also because the Jays would be alienating most of their fanbase by trading Halladay for a bunch of prospects that people haven't heard of (and considering profit is the only thing this team cares about, losing a lot of fans isn't acceptable). I think the owners will be perfectly content with maintaining the status quo for another season while finding a way to cut payroll a different way (Overbay, Rolen, Scutaro, Rios, Downs).
And yes, this team could contend next year if they make the right moves in the offseason and Halladay stays. The team is significantly weakened if some of those players above are gone, though.
"It's kind of sad how close this team was this year and Rogers couldn't pony up a few mil for a 5th starter (maybe a 4th too with the injuries) and a decent bat"
That's not it at all. You don't give away cash for trades. You give up players in your system. In May, or even mid-June there's no sense in giving up a potential piece ofthe future puzzle or two or three pieces to get Nick Johnson. Not in May. If they had stayed in it, that's a different story. That's just the sensible thing to do. Now if there was a team that needed to get rid of a bat because they couldn't resign him, and there was a fit and this team was 2 games back as of right now, I think you would have seen a lot more take place. Nick Johnson makes this a better team, but not a playoff contender.
It's also laughable to me that Kyle Drabek is "untouchable" and the guy that could keep a Halladay deal from occurring. Because, to me, the Phillies would be winning any Halladay deal easily. None of those prospects are close to the majors or "sure things," and the Phillies' window for winning is short with that roster.
Any team that goes 2-17 over two important road trips really can't be that "close".
"It's kind of sad how close this team was this year and Rogers couldn't pony up a few mil for a 5th starter (maybe a 4th too with the injuries) and a decent bat."
They are around the 5th best team in baseball this year (50-43 adjusted record), but they were actually closer to being in the playoffs last year. For them to win 86 games last season in the AL East with Wilkerson/Mench/Stewart as their primary DH was an incredible accomplishment. If they had acquired even a league average player to the position, they might have been a playoff team. Their pitching was the best in the league, and JP really didn't capitalize on that.
But yes, it really is a pity that Rogers is prepared to break up a team that could be really good if they just spent a bit more money.
Halladay will get traded this year!
This I Command
"Should they have overspent on a platoon partner for Overbay?"
You don't need to overspend to find a guy that mashes lefties. There are plenty of guys in AAA that can do that (heck, Josh Phelps comes to mind), or even some guys on their own AAA roster (Ruiz and Dopirak could at least do a decent job). Unfortunately they chose to roster Kevin Millar.
Kevin Millar is the kind of guy you want in the clubhouse. They still love him in Boston.
it makes no sense
70 mill payroll: shit
80 mill payroll: possible playoffs
if you arent going to spend the extra ten, why spend the 70? just shit bag it and drop to like 30......ooops wells makes that much himself.
Carlos Delgado is probably going to be a cheap free agent next year because of his hip injury.
If he's healthy it's a no brainer
Gaymie Campbell died his hair shit brown lol He truley is a fucking clown.
Loscar is my muchacho!
That man has the constitutionality of a vending machine.
""You don't need to overspend to find a guy that mashes lefties. There are plenty of guys in AAA that can do that (heck, Josh Phelps comes to mind), or even some guys on their own AAA roster (Ruiz and Dopirak could at least do a decent job). Unfortunately they chose to roster Kevin Millar."
Yeah, that's kinda my point. Spending a bunch of money would have been pointless. Obviously, Millar wasn't the right choice, but spending money for the sake of spending money wouldn't have been the right choice, either.
Always enjoy reading these posts! I have question, to follow up on what you say here, Stoeten: "...because Halladay's value, with two years left, is so high, and teams value their prospects so much, nobody is going to up a package enough above what you’d be damned sure to expect to get next year, or in the off-season, to make it worth doing now."
Perhaps you might speculate further on the nature of this log jam, if it can be called that--Toronto has what many analysts have been calling the "best pitcher" in the game, but from what we hear in trade rumors it seems as though having said best pitcher is, in fact, a liability (there is no compensation package that would not be lopsided, hence he really *can't* be traded--I think this was close to what you initially argued sometime last week or so).
Eh, so I'm wondering, is it fair to call this situation a stalemate, b/c Halladay is, paradoxically, a trade liability?
Would love to hear your thoughts!
Carlos Delgado wouldn't be a bad option...I think he can still hit. Not sure he can play 1B defensively anymore, though.
I think it may be a good time to start teaching Lind how to play first base. Assuming that you still have Rios and Wells in the outfield for quite a long time, Snider will take over in left field. Having Lind 1b, if he can do it will increase his value to the team after Overbay leaves. From there, it is much easier to acquire a big scary bat who doesn't have to be particularily good at any defensive position like Delgado/Thome/Cust that type.
The Question I pose:
Can this team continue to build the way it has been the last 5 years?
Or are we at a point where its either spend money an extra 30 mill and go hard, or rip the thing apart?
Rogers isn't prepared to commit to either one of those options, anon, so don't be expecting it. They are content with remaining in the treadmill of mediocrity.
"Someone in the organization."
Like who? Even within the organization isn't easy. They understandably were cautious with Snider. For whatever reason Lind didn't come up again until Cito. So all that was left was Coats, Adams, Luna, Thigpen, etc. all of whom would've been just as bad, and probably worse.
The real blame should be focused on not doing anything about it in the offseason. They seemed to prepare for potentially releasing Thomas by simply signing Stewart.
"You don't need to overspend to find a guy that mashes lefties. There are plenty of guys in AAA that can do that (heck, Josh Phelps comes to mind), or even some guys on their own AAA roster (Ruiz and Dopirak could at least do a decent job). Unfortunately they chose to roster Kevin Millar"
Please list 5 players who 1) were signed as free agents for cheap money this year and 2) who have had moderate success hitting in the majors this year.
I'll give you 1, Russell Branyan. Sheffield most likely wouldn't play on shitty turf, so I'm not going to allow him.
Go.
Well, Bobby Abreu.
But you're right. It's ridiculous to expect this team with this management to do something that might, you know, help the Jays win games. Even if Abreu was only $5M.
Like who? Even within the organization isn't easy. They understandably were cautious with Snider. For whatever reason Lind didn't come up again until Cito. So all that was left was Coats, Adams, Luna, Thigpen, etc. all of whom would've been just as bad, and probably worse.
The real blame should be focused on not doing anything about it in the offseason. They seemed to prepare for potentially releasing Thomas by simply signing Stewart.
Ahh... you mean the guys last year. Still could have made a deal. I seem to recall Adam Dunn being available. I seem to recall Barry Bonds being available.
I know, I know... but it's just fucked that the team with the best pitching and best defence in baseball missed the playoffs because they couldn't find ANY way to go out and get a bat they desperately needed.
Stoeten, you mentioned the free agents the Jays would sign? AHHAHAHAHAHA, if they trade Doc THEY AIN'T SIGNING DICK!They are rebuilding/breaking downthis fucking team.According to Rogers shill, wilner, they can't do anything eye catching next year anyway the cheap fucks.
They could deal Rios and free up his money and try to get an Abreu or a Branyan IF Doc doesn't go. They really need two bats BUT JP can only spend so much money.Even then, they are still a blah team BECAUSE they need two bats not one.
Yeah, but the thing is, you're a fucking idiot, so who cares what you think?
come on stoten...
tldr
cliffs?
dude AT MOST that should take you 10 minutes. you might want to look into some ritalin.
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