Boners Up: DJF 2009 Podcast #29 (Guest: Jeff Citron)
Another week, another podcast, and even though there wasn’t all that much Jays-related activity to comment on, we managed to find some nuggets to speak of, like the recent proposal that first surfaced on Elliotte Friedman’s blog, which tries to explode some of the myths about the unfeasibility of building the Jays a new ballpark.
We spoke to one of the co-authors of the paper—which you can read in its entirety here—corporate finance and sports lawyer Jeff Citron, who believes its time to start the discussion.
Indeed.
As always, the podcast is available at The Score, or through iTunes.
Mintmusical interludes: The Soft Pack Right and Wrong, Action Makes Berlin, Wavves California Goth, Primal Scream Blood Money, Spacemen 3 Revolution, The Stooges Fun House
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51 rational and reasonable comments:
I see you put the band you play tambourine for in the Podcast.
About time assholes!
Fuck off Parkes
Fuck off Stoten
Fuck off Shitberg
Hope your parting shots don't suck again. Parkes blew more cock than Stoten does every Saturday night.
I talked a bit about this on my blog. First of all, kudos to these guys anyways. Someone's gotta start the discussion.
The proposal was fuzzy on financials. When you build a new ballpark in Toronto, even if you somehow get public cash, you can't rely on it. Not a cent. As well, I'm not sure where this 300 million dollar figure came from. Nationals Park cost 611 million and Target Field cost 530 million. PNC was done in a slight recession in Pittsburgh for 270 million almost a decade ago. I don't see it getting done for 300 million unless they have an estimate from HOK or someone.
That said there exists enough media and sports conglomerates in this city and a gazillion times the private money that places like Oakland and Tampa have. Add onto gate/naming rights, funding lotteries, you could get the funds. I hear MLSE likes teams that get new stadiums...
Financial obligations aside, the City of Toronto would back this. They'd get you the land, East Donlands has been a site they've tried to develop for years. They just announced a streetcar line that will be built going out there. The ballpark would lure businesses into the organization and there are already plans for developing low rise housing, community centres and even schools. Cherry Beach is completely undeveloped other than sketchy warehouses, so you would be able to build this neighbourhood taking into account everything a stadium neighbourhood could have.
Not to mention, if Rogers doesn't build the stadium it's not getting done. So if Rogers doesn't want to build a new stadium, there won't be a new stadium. They will want the control, the luxury box revenues, the selling of in-game sponsorship. The Jays would have to own this.
Haven't read article or listen to podcast yet, about to start but quick question.
Would you take 5 years of "rebuilding" on the current team for a new Stadium in 3-4 years?
I don't live in Toronto, but if you lot spend a single fucking nickel via public financing on a motherfucking stadium, when the pieces of shit can't come up with a few hundred grand to sign their draft picks or put in some decent pieces around Roy, then I weep for you. I weep for you, not out of pity, but out of sadness.
This is the SINGLE WORST OWNERSHIP CURRENTLY IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. They are in no position to make any fucking demands. Of anyone.
Never fucking forget what these [i]interminably fucks[/i] did to the fanbase this year. Never forget, never forgive. I wish them all dead.
Stoten's always rebuilding. He can't get laid by anyone 16 or younger!
Well, I see I messed up the grammar and the tags. I'm completely incompetent; I could be running this team
lmfao Great pic.
The Jays might as well get every dollar out of Skydome that they can since they own it. They'll have to figure out at what point that changes where upkeep becomes untenable. I would bet that place could reasonably be used another 15 years.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but great call on the guest. It's pretty cool that these guys have done this.
I wonder what Rogers thinks of it. Stoeten - I remember a few months ago you wrote something about Rogers getting rid of the Hard Rock cafe to add more seats for NFL games. Have you heard more about that? If Rogers did start to renovate the dome to be more NFL friendly, it would make sense that they may be considering a new MLB stadium in the long term plans. Unless Rogers are big enough assholes to have the Jays play in a 60,000 seat stadium.. which they may be.
Also, regarding the Dome, don't forget Rogers got the place for next to nothing. It's not like it really represents a huge investment for them. Plus there's still CFL, NFL, and concerts etc.
"I really wish the Jays hired myself, BFF, SP, and some other notable commentators in the front office to bring some common sense back to baseball in Toronto."
The above is a quote from JB in a previous thread. Does anyone wonder why this blog is such a joke?
I mean I found this place by accident about a year ago and I still marvel at the adolesence and stupidity.
Please bring on other teams' bloggers as guests. There is no reason to not have other fans' perspectives on the team.
Fuck other fans.
Fuck other teams' bloggers.
We are smarter than them.
And more drunk.
And more stoned.
Go Rogers Baseball Operations.
I don't want an outdoor stadium, the Rogers Centre isn't perfect but those cold days at the Ex were brutal.
As well, I would be shocked if this actually happened, no way the public would support financing such a project and no way Rogers puts up the money to do it.
I went to the Roy Halladay vs Cliff Lee game in Cleveland in early April and it sucked. It was freezing and too cold to hold beer. There was nobody there. I can't remember the announced attendance but it was low.
If the Rogers Center is ever going to be replaced it should be replaced by a new retractable roof stadium that allows for natural grass... it is being done. Minnesota should have done it and they're going to regret it.
Last year's World Series was a joke, a game being played in terrible weather over 2 days - give me a break.
Blue Jays are going broke
Anonymous 3:04am just ignore JB he is like a child that thinks everything he says is always right.
Solid Podcast, excluding laughing over the death of Peter Zezel.
Reasons the dome was built if I remember correctly were:
To have a first class facility to show the world that Toronto was a major world city.
To avoid cold weather games like opening day '77 ( Toronto was embarassed?)
Exhibition stadium was a football stadium that was always supposed to be temporary and was rushed together for the '77 season.
Too many out of town group sales were lost because of weather uncertainty, with the dome the groups were gauranteed to see the game(do they still have a big market for that?)
If attendance were to decline because of these reasons, could you risk an outdoor stadium again?
PS.I support outdoor baseball, but even I'd have trouble sitting for 2 to 3 hours in 4 degree weather.
I think the general idea is that for the first couple of years (and stop quoting Washington attendance-they are terrible and nobody has money) attendance would be extraordinarily high (Toronto's track record of new stadiums does attest) and coinciding after a rebuild and newfound cash that the team would be competitive and have a big payroll etc. So it would be winning that would draw people out...which is a precarious reason for building a new stadium.
Personally I think the most reasonable and realistic idea is after the Bills in Toronto post-2012 is figured out and once the Argos lease expires is to renovate the Dome as a baseball stadium first and foremost that accomodates other events like concerts. This would include things like reducing the seating in the 500 level/other levels, solving real grass, new seats, exterior surface solutions, etc. A renovation like that could make the place look very different for 150 million and could have a similar effect of having a new stadium if done correctly.
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Internet-controversy-of-the-day-Does-Rivera-thr;_ylt=AlaNyEMO61egP9RDLEhyoWBShgM6?urn=mlb,197070
And further to what Jeff says, the East Bayfront is the target property for Toronto's Pan Am games bid. I'm sure the stadium plays into those plans, as does the proposed housing, which will mean federal $$ if the bid is accepted.
I think you're right, Jeff. I think that most fans would be satisfied with a major renovation as opposed to a new stadium. As you say, find a way to have real grass, a reduction of seats etc. It would make a big difference.
However, it seems to me that this really hinges on Rogers pursuit on an NFL franchise. If Rogers gives up its chase of an NFL team then I think a renovation of the RC to be more baseball friendly is realistic.
However, if Rogers is actually successful in bringing an NFL team here, then it changes things. Where does that team play? Since, I imagine, it would be cheaper to build a MLB only stadium than an NFL stadium, I could see the RC being renovated to be home to the NFL franchise (assuming that's possible) with the Jays getting a new stadium in that situation.
never thought i'd hear jerry making a call after a stooges song.
On top of what James said, I think there's more value to Rogers in building a baseball stadium and renovating the Dome fot football than building an entirely new football stadium. If a NFL stadium was built today and the Bills came here, it would no doubt become one of those places to be seen giant corporate galas of sporting events like we've all seen before here. But the Jays would stay the same, still drawing 23-28k if not an even negative change.
But if the NFL team goes to a 65,000 seat Dome, that place sells out and becomes tha giant corporate event Rogers wants it to be but the Jays are also capitalizing because they've got a swanky new stadium that cost less than an NFL one. In terms of strength of assets, I think that's the ideal scenario for Rogers. You would then have two unbelievable money makers.
My understanding for the requirements the NFL is looking for in any expansion team are;
1) The stadium MUST have no less than 70,000 capacity.The dome won't expand to that supposedly.
2) I think for expansion they would prefer only individuals and not corporations, for ownership.
3) Expansion fee would be huge , I'm guessing.
Whether the NFL would waive those requirements is anybody's guess.
Somebody reading this knows better than me.
They've built some NFL stadiums in the past few years with capacities in the low 60 thousands..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_stadiums
My understanding is the minimum capacity for the NFL is 50,000, but the NFL would definitely want something larger (smallest stadium's in Chicago and it holds 61,500)
As far as expansion fees go, I've heard for a new franchise you can expect to pay upwards of $1 billion and no the NFL won't waive that. That said most people who think the NFL might come to Toronto don't expect an expansion team, they expect the Bills to move.
KLAW on Fan590 soon, don't know exact time though, sometime 6-7
Not one fucking mention of Mariano Rivera getting busted last night? Pathetic
Tim McClelland should retire.
These fucking umps.
Unreal.
its hilarious the mariano rivera thing is even a story- everyone who believes it is guaranteed either fucking stupid or fucking poor and cant afford television or HD..its clear that hes spitting beside the ball, you can see the spit go over his finger...not that difficult to figure out
Random thoughts:
Skydome is part of every tourist marketing campaign for Ontario and Toronto, and it is certainly part of the City's identity..... but it really sucks for intimacy and baseball.
I agree that the big thing will be what Roger's had in mind for NFL - a renovated dome, or a new 80,000 seat stadium. I personally cannot see them only packing in 58,000, when they could easily get 80,0000 a game while the halo effect is on. Couple that with a possible future bid for Olympics or similar - and new stadium to house the track, and the outlook for a change in venue for the Jays is pretty slim.
I think you could do a lot with the dome with 150 mil, making it a baseball only facility.... natural grass (I know some BC guys that could provide their grow-op expertise), no more 500 level, open the concrete up to see outside ala Miller Park, make it a little more asymmetrical like moving the bullpens and jumbotron both to one side, having a home run deck, etc.
However, I believe it was Godfrey who said that we need to bring more events to the dome in order to keep it viable, meaning that a transition to an intimate setting via reducing the 500 deck and going to real turf ala the old Busch Stadium is not ever going to happen.
But ultimately they will need a change at some point in the next 10 years, or the franchise will continue it's slide to oblivion.
I like the idea of building in a Wrigley like atmosphere.... I would actually consider moving to TO if they did that!
These photo stills make it very obvious Rivera spit directly on the ball, right after he very obviously turned his back to the home plate and 1B umpires and checked the 2B and 3B umpires before spitting.
http://www.halosheaven.com/2009/10/19/1092390/mariano-rivera-caught-doctoring
BC Jays Fan,
It's ridiculous blaming the Rogers Centre for the Jays "slide to oblivion". This is just not a baseball city, never has been and never will be. It will always be a hockey city.
Even during the championship years, the huge crowds were more attributable to the novelty of the new stadium than the performance of the Jays. On the rare occasions when the roof was opened or closed during a game, it grabbed more fan attention than anything happening on the field.
Mark my words, an open air stadium would be a huge mistake. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.
I fucking hate Paul Shaffer.
"These photo stills make it very obvious Rivera spit directly on the ball, right after he very obviously turned his back to the home plate and 1B umpires and checked the 2B and 3B umpires before spitting.
http://www.halosheaven.com/2009/10/19/1092390/mariano-rivera-caught-doctoring"
like i said retard, go watch the video and watch it CAREFULLY - you can see him spit and the spit goes beside the ball...you can see the spit go OVER HIS FINGER, AND BLOCK OUT HIS FINGER WHILE IT PASSES. seriously, i don't get how difficult this is to understand? does it take an entire nation to realize that this is a non-story? i'd be so pissed if i was rivera.
also, the person who wrote the captions under those photos on your link might be more retarded than yourself - in the 6th and 7th photos, it's not the "spit halo" ("spit halo"? haha seriously?), it's the logo on scioscia's jacket.
That "spit halo" think is hilarious, especially since the guy uses that as his main proof that some of the spit hit the ball... honestly, how can anyone be that stupid?
It was ted rogers that wanted to buy an NFL team not his company! If the NFL expands to canada it wont be rogers that will be paying for it, they are already having trouble running a baseball team that has been in the city for 33 years.
How bout this, hes dumb, his black, and he missed the ball when spitting towards it.
I hate statements like 'this is a hockey city, not a baseball city. always has been always will be'. Brain dead, rural, hockey Dad bullshit.
Yes, hockey the most popular sport in Toronto, but that doesn't somehow exclude baseball or any sport from also being extremely popular. This isn't fucking Barrie, it's the 5th largest city in North America - one of the most diverse cities in the world. There's room for more than one sport to be popular. Do people in Boston dismiss the Pats or Celtics because 'it's a baseball city, always has been, always will be'? And by the way, take a look at the changing demographics within the actual city, because basketball may become more popular than both hockey and baseball in the city limits in the next several years.
Obviously hockey is enormous here, but if the Raptors, Jays (or potential NFL franchise) were contending teams they'd be absolutely huge (as the Jays were from 85 to 95).
Turning the Dome into an old Busch Stadium isn't all that bad for concerts. A reduction of seats from 50,000 to 40,000 wouldn't hurt and would still be the biggest venue in the city. There's not many concerts that draw much over that (though this year there's actually been an unusual few..AC/DC, U2, Jonas, Coldplay) but 40k would still be sufficient to be a premium huge concert venue. The 40,000 lost ticket revenue for 4 concerts could easily be made up because it would hopefully be a huge improvement for baseball fans. As well tehre's enough technology to have concerts on grass fields: Fenway has had some amazingly kickass concerts with an intimate atmosphere and real grass.
And as for the hockey city adage...well no where else do people in Toronto actually get in competition with each of the city's teams. That attitude, that Leafs fans can't be Jays fans has actually turned me off of hockey entirely. James is right though, this isn't Cleveland and 5 million people in the GTA can more than support over 1 sport. Doc vs. AJ: The 45k on a Tuesday in May weren't accidental tourists. If you actually give them something to cheer for, they will show up.
Torontonians don't give a shit about the blue jays anymore & it's starting to look that way with the leafs recently as well. This city is a hockey town though & the fact we're canadian plays the biggest part in that.
So we've got asshole Yankee fans making moronic excuses for Rivera and we've got idiot Americans telling us hockey isn't that big a deal in the GTA.
Fucking gold.
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