Overbay To Seattle Rumours
I guess if I'm going to shit down the throats of children writing in their campus newspapers, I might as well also entertain day old rumours about Lyle Overbay.
As the GM meetings closed, word broke that the Jays and Mariners were discussing a possible deal that would send the Washington native to Seattle. Add this to the earlier rumoured Overbay for Snyder Sirotkaing, and it's feeling pretty safe to assume that the Jays starting first baseman, against right handed pitching anyway, will be on the move this offseason.
According to FanGraphs, last season's $7 million (plus bonuses) for Overbay was a good value, despite what Jays Talk callers will say. It's unfortunate that Toronto's anemic offense doesn't offer a better showcase for Overbay, but even if it did, as the Jays look to rebuild, now is definitely the time to trade the lefty.
I'm guessing the Seattle rumours, which seem to pop up every year, have more to do with contract negotiations with Russel Branyan than a serious interest in Overbay. The Mariners are one of the few teams in the American League worse off than the Blue Jays at the plate, and in order for Overbay's effectiveness to be maximized, he needs to be in a power hitting lineup.
Update: Will Toronto's Lyle Overbay impostor also be on the move?
Posts
90 rational and reasonable comments:
It's astonishing that roster decisions are being made because of a manager who is only here for one more season.
I DEMAND CREDIT FOR TIPPING YOU TO THIS EVEN THOUGH YOU PROBABLY ALREADY KNEW ABOUT IT
Phillies are looking at 3B Edwin Encarnacion.
Ha, not really.
Yea seriously, the desperate shopping of Overbay has Cito written all over it. Overbay was likely the biggest of the "mutineers" and it's not like there's a 1B waiting to step right in since they refuse to try Lind there. It shouldn't be about money since his contract has good value and expires after next year. Barajas sucking aside, the Snyder trade wouldn't have been necessary if Cito didn't alienate Rod in the first place.
Its going to rain tomorrow. Surely it is that old fucker Cito's fault as well.
...or could Lyle be on the move because he is one of the only players that actually have value (and other teams are asking for not named Lind or Hill) and bring something back that will benefit this team for more than 2 years?
Overbay's contract is fair; but using fangraphs appraisal of his 2009 season to determine he is a "good value" is kinda fruitless. 1B like Adam Laroche, Nick Johnson and Branyan could all be cheaper than Overbay and provided greater value. Furthermore, fangraphs doesn't rate his defense as particularly good and his defense will likely keep declining as he approaches his mid-30's.
The appealing part of Overbay is the fact that he is only a one year deal. But are Johnson and Branyan getting more than one year deals? Maybe, but not at $7 million/yr, IMO. There are a number of intriguing options for 1B, including someone like Garret Atkins who will be non-tendered.
If I were an opposing GM, I wouldn't bother with a steady, but unspectacular option like Overbay unless the Jays eat a couple of million (which is probably what it will take to move him). And even then, I wouldn't give up anything of significance.
Ok, even though Walt Jocketty called bullshit on the Votto rumours...whatever, I think he is a better 1B option than Lind (I think he has a better bat and has shown he can handle the defensive responsibilites of 1B).
How 'bout offer the Reds Lind and Overbay for Votto and either Arroyo or Harang (whichever ones the Reds prefer to dump I guess). The Reds save around $5 million in 2010 and rid themselves of a "headcase" like Votto. Plus they upgrade their offense and give Alonso another year to develop. And we get to watch Votto with a 1.000 OPS next year...
I think you trade Overbay because there's almost no point keeping him around.
We'll miss his defense.
Hurry up A.A.
Deal him, I hate polite assholes.
"Its going to rain tomorrow. Surely it is that old fucker Cito's fault as well.
...or could Lyle be on the move because he is one of the only players that actually have value (and other teams are asking for not named Lind or Hill) and bring something back that will benefit this team for more than 2 years"
Are people really this oblivious? Have you heard one trade rumour about the one Blue Jay who actually carries value, Scott Downs? No. And he would actually fetch something with his affordable contract and Type A status, unlike Overbay.
Cito isn't a huge fan of Downs either. Why isn't he getting traded then, if that's why they're moving Overbay?
Wasn't the reason everyone wanted to trade Overbay was so Lind could move to first?It's not always a Cito conspiracy.
SP, Ari and Jays2010, I am shaking my head at yous.
Maybe there have been trade talks involving Downs but it hasn't leaked? Maybe the talks have been with another GM who likes to work quietly?
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Downs traded.
This deal has nothing to do with cito you shit for brains! Some people have NO clue.
Why is that Stoeten? I mean, the bullshit Votto trade idea, sure...but, what, the Overbay thing? What exactly is the purpose of keeping him? Good defence (though he is getting older and that will, in all likelihood, mean a decline in his defence) and he needs to be platooned. His OBP is obviously nice, but I'll bet that Nick Johnson does not require $7 mill/yr and he doesn't need to be platooned and draws even more walks than Lyle. Of course, he is injury prone, but Lyle is basically injury-prone vs LHP (in that he cannot be trusted to play against them).
I agree that Overbay gets a bad rap because he has 2 skills (OBP & good defense) that are not considered too important in 1B. I'm not saying he sucks the way JaysTalk callers do...but based on his age, contract and the fact he needs to be platooned coupled with what the Jays seem to be trying to do in 2010 ("build" or "rebuild" and cut payroll in the process), what is the point of keeping him? And based on every rumour you here, you don't get the impression that Overbay could be moved without taking another contract back...
Honestly, Stoeten, give me a good reason for keeping Overbay? His fangraphs value? There will be free agents who are worth $10 million in 2009 according to fangraphs that will make half of that (I'm betting)...
Two teams that I believe were linked to Downs last year were the Rockies and Angels; both of whom would be, from my perspective, good trading partners for Doc (not that the Rockies necessarily are willing to spend the money to bring Doc home). Relievers like Downs are easy to move and can be a part of a bigger package. He can be moved l8r on...
"First baseman Lyle Overbay is one of those who wants Gaston to improve his communication. Overbay, who had expected to be a full-time player, found himself platooned with Kevin Millar as the season wore on.
"More than anything, I want to try to figure out what to expect for next year. It kind of caught me off-guard a little bit when I wasn't playing. ... (Gaston) never really said a lot. As we were winning, he was kind of sitting on the back burner, watching us play good," Overbay said.
Overbay said talk about meeting with management began a couple of weeks ago.
"We've got to figure it out. We're not going to be a very good team if this goes on," he said."
BIG BLACK OVERBAY!
trade cito, not overbay
Cito aint going nowhere
@Radar:
Will you please stop with this Lind to first stuff?
Adam Lind should NEVER play first in the big leagues on a regular basis. He is suited for left field/DH. First base is actually an important defensive position despite what the old folks think.
Lind will be a great first baseman! I can't wait!
Cito ain't going nowhere now but I bet you he quits mid-season because the players, journalists, and fans will have no more time for his bullshit.
Lind after a year at first:
http://redbirdnation.blogspot.com/kruk229x360.jpg
JB Stop Whining!
Trade everybody who has value that you don't expect to be here in 2011, this includes:
- Overbay (which I still have doubts as to whether other teams are willing to part with anything of value to get him)
- Downs
- Frasor
- Encarnacion
- Halladay
- Accardo
Of course, don't just give them away.
JB welch's on all his bets anyways so just ignore him.
"First base is actually an important defensive position despite what the old folks think."
Isn't it the second least important defensive position according to the fielding bible?
Lind was a first baseman in college, I think he can handle it.
JB if ignorance were a disability, you'd get the full pension.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA0IpS_3S-0&feature=related
JB, you've culled the opinion that Lind can't play first from where? Watching him in the outfield? How much did you see of Lind when he was in college? You have as little idea of how well Lind would do at first as anybody. Jesus fucking talk out your ass some more.
Jays2010... I meant the Votto thing.
Doesn't have the soft hands, footwork, or arm to play first base. That's my opinion, but it is a pretty good one.
Watch him dig those balls out of the dirt thrown from EE or whatever shitbag we hire at shortstop.
Parkes and Rosenthal hanging out!
http://www.myspaceantics.com/images/funny/metal-midget.jpg
Hi!
Doesn't have the soft hands, footwork, or arm to play first base. That's my opinion, but it is a pretty good one.
It's really not. Again, based on what? Your expertise in footwork that we're supposed to just take on faith? Sorry, but you act like enough of an insufferable know-it-all that the instinct is to just assume it's complete bullshitting when you talk about these things-- especially when all you can do to elaborate is to say "watch". Oooh, airtight case, professor. You really proved that you know what you're talking about.
Well it is something that we baseball fans do. Give opinions. Sometimes we discuss these opinions on blogs. I thought you knew about this, but sometimes I wonder.
I have seen Adam Lind take infield. Granted it is batting practice and maybe they are screwing around. But he does not look good. There is nothing to suggest he can play first just as much as there is nothing to suggest he can't. So we use these things called opinion. And yes, I think I have a good one.
Unless you can give me some metric that shows that he will be an adequate first baseman? Nope? Didn't think so. Until then you are going to have to go by my opinion, which I think is pretty good just like all my opinions about baseball. Sometimes I am wrong, but most of the time I am right. Live with it.
JB, you know if you keep quiet no one will know how stupid you are.
Whatever fucking hands he has they didn't exactly work out in left field, did they JB? And yeah, I was at some games where he played left. Overbay was (past tense) excellent at scooping throws out of the dirt, but I'll take a some meaningful HR's and a few errors at first over Overbay's casual inconsistency.
Mike McCoy is johnny mac's replacement: Mikey Mac
Unless you can give me some metric that shows that he will be an adequate first baseman? Nope? Didn't think so. Until then you are going to have to go by my opinion, which I think is pretty good just like all my opinions about baseball.
Funniest thing I've read all day.
"Do you have any PROOF that Barack Obama isn't going to come over to my house tonight to play ping pong? Didn't think so. Until you do, you're just going to have to go with my opinion and admit that he is and I'M GOING TO BEAT HIM THIS TIME."
That's honestly the silliest logic ever. "There's no proof either way, so until there is, let's just agree that I'm right."
If you look up Self-righteous in a dictionary there should be a picture of JB's fat ass.
Adam Lind is a proffesional baseball player who's played the game all his life. I think he can handle catching a ball thrown at him.
Maybe Overbay wants out like Rolen did?
Regardless of his value, it looks like he's Rolen' his way out before the spring. (see what I did there?)
Lind's great season at the plate had absolutely nothing to do with soft hands, strength, or footwork, right?
This is first motherfucking base we're talking about here. Anyone who isn't lazy and is coachable can play it adequately. I'm not expecting Keith Hernandez here, just a guy who can catch a ball, make routine plays, and you know, accurately complete one of the ten throws a first baseman makes during a season.
(arm strength? really? for a first baseman? really? who gives a fuck... this isn't third base or right field.)
LOL at Stoeten calling someone else an insufferable know it all. You write a fucking BLOG dude!! Get over yourself. I like how you pretend to "cover" the Blue Jays now as you said recently yourself. Like you're a credentialed reporter or some shit. JB is expressing his OPINION strongly. That's how people are taught to express opinions. I remember my junior school teacher telling us to never use qualifiers like "I think" because they're redundant. Mr. power of the written Word over here gets offended when anyone has a strong opinion that can't be proven and when people don't pepper their opinions with qualifiers and conditional statements so it's impossible for their opinion to ever be wrong. That would be Stoeten writing 101. It's not fucking scientific theory you idiot. It's just opinions and counterpoints on a blog. GET OVER YOURSELF.
Sure JB
I wouldn't care if Lind played 1B.
Well, then JB's strong opinion is wrong. Some of the worst athletes in sports history have played 1B. If you're above 5'10 and you have average hand-eye coordination (by average I mean you're not an artard), then you can play 1B in the majors. Seriously. I love defense, don't get me wrong, but I'm not fretting about Lind at 1B. I'm fretting more about Lind playing LF or taking up a DH spot that could go to a free agent instead. If they're shopping Overbay because they want to move Lind to first, then great, but it better not be about some Cito shit.
Shut Up SP-(Small Penis)
Just read another paper suggest that the Overbay rumors were to make Branyan nervous. Good call.
...you got me.
"I wouldn't care if Lind played 1B."
Thank God. How could the Blue Jays ever make that move without BFF okaying it first.
Adam Lind & Aaron Hill each won Silver Slugger Awards tonight.
Nice!
I see the mental defective is out once again tonight.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/royals-prefer-trades.html
I would love to get David DeJesus. Dude is a solid hitter and has been one of the best fielders in the majors for the last several years. He can play CF too. He'd come a lot cheaper than a FA like Nady, for example, and provide better value. If only they had a need at 1B. They're like 3-4 deep at that position.
More DeJesus love: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/dejesus-and-daytons-destiny
FIRE PAOLO!!!!
FIRE CHRIS MONAHAN!
Stoeten...yah the Votto thing I said was bullshit...but wasn't someone (i.e. you or Parkes) talking the other day about bringing Votto to town? One of the easiest ways I can think of to do it would be to trade Lind because they need a LF more than a 1B due to Alonso. Not saying the Reds should do it (I think they shouldn't do it which is why I should do it)...but if you buy the "headcase" bullshit or the fact that they need to move salary, well, that's one way to do it.
Harang has negative trade value due to his contract and he missed the last few weeks of the year. Not to mention the meagre 12 wins he racked up the last year (I'm not being Griffen with wins here, but the FA market overvalues wins and HR's, right?) So, fine, straight up Lind for Votto and Harang's bloated contract. Do the Reds do it? I don't know and, yeah, this is all bullshit because these trades NEVER happen...but, fuck, u guys just did a story about it the other day and at least in my scenario we are trading one offensive star (Lind) for another, but I prefer Votto's defense...
And JB...dude, you are presenting the flimsiest fucking argument I've ever heard for not trying someone at 1B...seriously, I can at least understand most of ur anti-Cito shit...but because people can't find a metric that suggests Lind will be a good 1B? Can you find a fucking metric that proves Lind doesn't deserve a shot at 1B? Fuck off.
Fuck me gently with a spoon.What a shit storm.Musta been "shit on JB" day.Anyways.
@ JB 3:52
My reponse was directed at ari and SP who speculated that the "trade Overbay" talk was generated by Cito, who is obviously the mastermind behind all trade talk, in his bid to rule the world.
Most of the people I read here seem to think that Lind should be playing 1st.IF that were to happen , then THEY reason ,Overbay becomes expendable trade bait.
I don't agree or disagree. But here's my position.
1. I don't think Cito's behind the trade speculation --It just doesn't make sense.
2.Even Lind says he shouldn't be at 1st. Which is weird, seeing that it was his natural position in college,it's the easiest position to play and his range and arm in left is below average.But he should know himself best.
Lastly , it's not just "old folks" who think 1st is the easiest position, Bill James (gasp) rates it the easiest too.
Geez, old school agrees with sabermetrics.
Well, fuck me gently with a spoon.
Hey! What's all this talk about Overbay and Lind? Let's get back to what's important, me and my ego. I have to be traded to a playoff contender in order to become a man. I cannot rot in relative obscurity in this shithole anymore.
Congrats to Lind and Hill on their SS awards.
BTW, Do we admire the Silver Slugger voters because they voted for Lind and Hill but hate the Golden Glove voters because they voted for Jeter? Even though they are the same people?
I'm confused again.Who am I supposed to hate for the injustice?
Must drink more.
This is the 4th year in a row the Leafs are ranked as the most valuable franchise in the NHL.
Once again it proves that winning has little to do with a team's popularity.
Meanwhile the Jays came in 23rd out of 30 teams which frankly sucks considering the size of this market.
Radar, you're supposed to hate Papelbon ... until he gets traded here, then you will be required to love him.
"This is the 4th year in a row the Leafs are ranked as the most valuable franchise in the NHL.
Once again it proves that winning has little to do with a team's popularity.
Meanwhile the Jays came in 23rd out of 30 teams which frankly sucks considering the size of this market."
Ok I am not comparing the Leafs to the Jays; nor am I saying that their should be a salary cap in MLB...but, I do believe if the Jays won more and/or were in another division, the fans would come...if the playoffs were a possibility...I haven't put on my JP apologist hat in a while...but he was pretty good at finding scrap heap bullpen help and drafting a number of quality pitchers (though no true aces as of yet). Value picks would be even more valuable in a cap world and does anyone think the Yankees would be the best team in baseball with a cap? Maybe the would, but there is no way to know this...and the Jays, in a cap world, would likely be a better team with a more realistic shot at the playoffs...which would result in more fans, revenues and presumably a better rating in this Forbes shit...not that this has to do with anything other than me looking for any reason to defend our former tzar, JP the Great...
In a cap world the Yankees wouldn't even make the playoffs. If they had any faith in their own ability to make operational decisions, they wouldn't have needed to grossly outspend every other team in baseball every year since 1999.
One step MLB could take in the right direction is to have EVERY player become subject to the draft, even foreign players such as Chapman. It is not fair that big spending teams always get first crack at international talent.
Cano > Hill
Cano only had higher avg obp and slg, but whatever all the idiot writers look at only HR.
I think the shit storm of trades is upon us boys. Halladay will be moved very soon and then a landslide of record amounts of trades will begin.
Buckle up Sally it's going to be a wild ride.
Blue Jays 4 fucking-ever
'Cano > Hill
Cano only had higher avg obp and slg, but whatever all the idiot writers look at only HR."
- Cano also played in what some are calling the most offensive ballpark of all time.
- With a lineup around him that made pitchers view him as one of the outs in the order, thus leading to seeing better pitches.
@Radar
Left field is considered by many the easiest position in baseball, not first base. It requires the least fielding skill. There is a good argument to be made that right field is also easier because of the infrequency of plays.
There is also a difference between easiest position and importance.
I just read that Adam Lind doesn't think he can play first. I remember David Justice having this problem when he broke into the big leagues. They wanted him at first. Justice went out of his way to say he didn't want to play there and even said in an interview with TBS that (paraphrase here) "I don't have the skills to play first base and I am uncomfortable being that close to the batter."
From what I have seen it is MY OPINION that Lind is in the same boat.
Until Hill can start to take a walk, there are many better second basemen. Including Cano. I would trade Hill in a second if I could get exceptional value back. Hill makes a lot of outs. In fact, I think he lead the league.
@JB - Thats funny you dislike Hill because he doesn't take walks, and then bring up Robinson "12 walks less than Aaron Hill in 2008" Cano. They are pretty equal players, especially when you consider Cano is worse in the field.
Hill had the lowest BB% rate of his career, so I think Cito definately had an effect on him, and I personally will take the 35/100 hill over one who walks a bit more.
Also where did you 'just read' that Lind doesn't want to play first base?
JB has gone retarded
Tercet, JB, and countless others are right. Cano is better in OBP and SLG.
Are people still using RBI as a meaningful offensive stat?
@ TSG
"Also where did you 'just read' that Lind doesn't want to play first base"
He was interviewed on the fan 590 during the season and was asked. He sorta laughed and said he'd play any position if the team asked but didn't think he would play well at first base. And yes it was brought up that he played the position in college,which is why his response was weird.
So Adam Lind agrees with crazy old JB? Guess he is talking out of his ass there.
I don't know why you think that because a player played a position in college they would be cut out for it in the big leagues. I could give you a countless list of college shortstops who ended up playing left field in the big leagues.
Hey, I like Hill. He is one of our good guys.
But I would take Zorbist, Cano, Pedroia, and (maybe) Kinsler over Aaron Hill. Of course I would also take Utley in the other league.
It is still not too bad to have a top five second basemen.
It is just that Cano had a better season.
Stop Whining!
SS and 1st base are two completely different positions! JB your feeble mind never ceases to amaze me.
Hey idiot, my point was that even the top position in college doesn't translate into big league defensive success!
God vomited and then there was JB
Yes, I am a product of God. Put on this earth to enlighten you.
JB, you know if you keep quiet no one will know how stupid you are.
Only ONE team in MLB right now has had LESS success since 1993 than the Jays and that team is Pittsburgh.
Every other team has made the playoffs since then, for fucks sakes the Expos had more success than us in that time.
You know there was a time when the Yankees averaged 21,000 in New York and everyone wrote them off saying that baseball was dead.
Baseball in toronto is dead, just none of you realize it yet.
"Only ONE team in MLB right now has had LESS success since 1993 than the Jays and that team is Pittsburgh. Every other team has made the playoffs since then"
You are full of shit. The Royals didn't make the playoffs and neither did the Nationals/Expos.
To fuckface 727 - your mother is a man with an oversized clit. You're too dumb to realize it yet!
overbay sucks bad, why doesnt anyone know this? he is far too shitty to play first in the al east. id trade this sack of shit for a vicious bout of diahrrea if i could
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